Biohazard Mercenaries

UMBRELLA => Mercenary Chat => Topic started by: KotierWolf on September 16, 2015, 03:05:33 AM



Title: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 16, 2015, 03:05:33 AM
While hanging out with Sixpockets, we eventually started talking about some changes would like to see in Resident Evil 5: The Mercenaries mode, and I've decided to post the ideas that were brought up here.

Incoming wall text of ranting that may or may not be relevant:

As a bit of an explanation, most games nowadays (such as Super Smash Bros. Wii U, and Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn to name a couple that I avidly play myself) receive periodic balance adjustments and patches to affect the overall game play. This differs from class/job specific changes to an MMO to also changes to characters in a fighting game.

This is something that really lacked in Resident Evil 5 and 6, specifically no love given to the Mercenaries modes. This could possibly be because the modes weren't popular enough, or the developers simply didn't plan on showing much attention the Mercenaries mode alone. Due to the lack of attention, the developers more than likely are unaware of what actually would need to be changed. This is because they probably do not play the game like the majority of us here do. Granted, that would sound strange as they were the ones who developed the concept in the first place (Build as much time as possible to gain the max points by the end; hold the boss until the very end to gain extra points in RE6 and Mercenaries Reunion, etc) however the argument could also be made that us "professional" mercs players simply exploited certain aspects of the game to a degree that the company didn't expect. Either way, if you compare the casual crowd to the professional crowd I'd say the casual crowd is who Capcom tried catering to the most.

To sum it up, I think Mercenaries would have been a much better enjoyment if Capcom did analyze how we played a lot earlier, and made changes to keep up with character balance and stayed with the point system we all enjoyed better. So I brought this up with Sixpockets recently and I asked him, if Capcom did pay more attention to the game mode and made certain changes and updates based on the current meta game that we created, what would he like to see? I've decided to post my ideas here, most I've got from Six while agreeing with him.
Note: This are just changes I'd like to see be done and some may not be that good, or logical at all, and all of you have a right to disagree. These are also strictly for RE5 Mercenaries Mode.

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General Character Changes

Chris Redfield:
. shorten the animation of Neck Breaker

Sheva Alomar:
. shorten the animation of Throat Slit
. either shorten the animation of Impale, or replace Impale with Double Fang from Mercenaries Reunion
. increase the power of Somersault slightly

Jill Valentine
. shorten the animation of Head Grab
. shorten the animation of Double Knee Drop
. increase the power of High Kick slightly (maybe to match Chris' Straight Punch)


Character Specific Changes

Chris BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F  handgun
. increase the power of the Ithaca M37 shotgun

Chris Safari:
. lower the power of the SIG P226 handgun (this would nerf his head shot into Straight Punch meta game, but influence more leg shots into uppercuts which in my opinion would serve as a more rewarding play-style.)

Sheva BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F handgun
. either increase the power of the M92F handgun slightly, or refer to the previous character change of increasing the power of her Summersault
. increase the power of the Dragunov SVD sniper rifle

Cheva Clubbin' :
. either increase the power of the S75  sniper rifle or increase the power of the Jail Breaker shotgun (I've suggested removing the sniper rifle from the inventory completely and increasing the damage of the Jail Breaker, however the sniper is still good for helping with Big Man Majini and Cephalo melee's so that is up for debate)

Sheva Tribal:
. add the H&K MP5 machine gun to the load out (This is a machine gun she actually starts out with in the versus mode: Survivors.)
. shorten the recovery time after each arrow shot from the Longbow

Jill BSAA:
. remove the high critical hit rate on the Px4 handgun
. increase the power of the H&K MP5 machine gun (This is to make it easier for her to solo most bosses, it may change how she melee's Big Man Majini's but I feel it would be an overall buff for her)

Jill Battlesuit:
. increase the power of the PSG-1 sniper rifle (Again, it may change some melee's but speeds up boss kills which is what holds characters back most of the time)

Wesker Midnight:
. remove the Proximity Bombs  from the load out (I think we all know those are basically used as little as the character itself in serious play nowadays. They're just an inconvenience to discard as well, since it wastes time overall.)
. replace the 5 Hand Grenades with 5 Flash Grenades (Not a great change, but would at least give some incentive to use him over Wesker STARS sometimes, especially on a stage like Ancient Ruins)

General Gameplay Changes:

Item/Ammo Drops:
I've been told that nothing is wrong item/ammo drops at all, however I've still thought of some things that could possibly be done to at least ease the certain games where characters such as Wesker, run out of ammo quite frequently. I've suggested that the hangun/machine gun ammo drop rate should slightly be increased on both character's sides if playing DUO, however since that would still rely too heavily on luck, I thought about these changes.

. handgun ammo received increased from 15 to 30
. magnum ammo received increased from 6 to 12
. nitrogen drops received increased from 3 to 6

The nitrogen may seem like a direct buff to Sheva Tribal and Chris STARS since even with how it is now, lucky drops can have players end up with a fully loaded Grenade launcher at 12 rounds in they are lucky enough. However, the drop rate for Nitrogen is so low that in most games you never really see a single one. The change in itself is debatable, and I don't doubt that a lot of other people would disagree with this change. It's just an idea I thought of.
As for the other two changes, they could either crowd up your inventory space more, or help save time from having to discard magnum or handgun ammo every time your partner needs it. It may or may not help in a solo game as well.

Character Abilities:
This is an idea Sixpockets thought of where just like how Wesker has his dash, other characters should have their own special abilities as well. I forgot what examples he gave, but I agree 100% with this addition. It would add more to the meta game, maybe making things a bit more complex, but it would add balance nonetheless.

---Also another fun little addition I'd like to mention is to add all of the characters from Mercenaries Reunion into regular Mercenaries. The new characters there were pretty balanced, and well built in my opinion. They were just introduced into a version of the game that none of us could really get into, therefore us not getting a chance to really get into those new characters.

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Those are basically all of the changes I can think of at this point. Most are my own ideas, however some where from Sixpockets as well. They all are mostly buffs to other characters, but that's to add to the diversity of the game so players don't feel so limited to a single character that's viable. Trust me in a "competitive" game, that's the last thing you would want. Some of my ideas I got from seeing other changes done to other games. Are there any changes any of you might want to add? Some changes here you don't agree with? I'd like to see your input.

As a side note: I understand this game is really old and more than half of us are not even playing anymore, but it's still fun to think about stuff like this in my opinion. We also can't deny that some of us still come back to this game, and if it were given more attention we probably would have played longer.

:woof:


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 16, 2015, 10:09:55 AM
damn you went all out. ill give a more detailed response later


Additional Post Merged: September 16, 2015, 06:04:33 PM
Chris Redfield:
. shorten the animation of Neck Breaker
disagree, chris already has 1 of the best melee sets in the game, no need for buff to any imo.

Chris Redfield:
Sheva Alomar:
. shorten the animation of Throat Slit
. either shorten the animation of Impale, or replace Impale with Double Fang from Mercenaries Reunion
. increase the power of Somersault slightly
yep yep. somersault so bsaa can melee after 2 hg shots especially. her melee set sucks so she needs all the help she can get.

Jill Valentine
. shorten the animation of Head Grab
. shorten the animation of Double Knee Drop
. increase the power of High Kick slightly (maybe to match Chris' Straight Punch)
na disagree on all except last which im impartial to. what she really needs is to make her front leg stun melee not hit heads so often so she's not always relying on dkd.
- head grab i feel like it being slow is her offset to having such a powerful ground melee. plus it can knock down other enemies. idk wouldnt mind the change i guess.
- dkd again animation is slow but it's an op move so who cares.

Chris BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F  handgun
. increase the power of the Ithaca M37 shotgun
- eh he doesn't really need the first change it's not like he should be shooting heads anyway
- sure increased shotty damage would be nice

Chris Safari:
. lower the power of the SIG P226 handgun (this would nerf his head shot into Straight Punch meta game, but influence more leg shots into uppercuts which in my opinion would serve as a more rewarding play-style.)
- mixed on this, on 1 hand it'd probably be a better playstyle but on the other hand he'd just be a better chris bsaa
i think his shotgun should be a it better atleast.

Sheva BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F handgun
. either increase the power of the M92F handgun slightly, or refer to the previous character change of increasing the power of her Summersault
. increase the power of the Dragunov SVD sniper rifle
- again she doesn't need to be doing headshots
- yep
- sure

Cheva Clubbin' :
. either increase the power of the S75  sniper rifle or increase the power of the Jail Breaker shotgun (I've suggested removing the sniper rifle from the inventory completely and increasing the damage of the Jail Breaker, however the sniper is still good for helping with Big Man Majini and Cephalo melee's so that is up for debate)
- jailbreak buff fine, s75 should get a huge damage buff. that thing should be as strong as a magnum.

Sheva Tribal:
. add the H&K MP5 machine gun to the load out (This is a machine gun she actually starts out with in the versus mode: Survivors.)
. shorten the recovery time after each arrow shot from the Longbow
- yep she needs something to melee more consistently
- yes something like that. i always wished her bow was like krauser's in re4. in re5 sheva nocks an arrow then you let go of the aim button and she has to put the arrow back before she can get moving again but in re4 krauser can just instantly start running again after letting go of aim. always annoyed me.

Jill BSAA:
. remove the high critical hit rate on the Px4 handgun
. increase the power of the H&K MP5 machine gun (This is to make it easier for her to solo most bosses, it may change how she melee's Big Man Majini's but I feel it would be an overall buff for her)
- disagree the high crit rate the px4 has is its niche, whether it's useful in mercs or not.
- sure

Jill Battlesuit:
. increase the power of the PSG-1 sniper rifle (Again, it may change some melee's but speeds up boss kills which is what holds characters back most of the time)
- sure

Wesker Midnight:
. remove the Proximity Bombs  from the load out (I think we all know those are basically used as little as the character itself in serious play nowadays. They're just an inconvenience to discard as well, since it wastes time overall.)
. replace the 5 Hand Grenades with 5 Flash Grenades (Not a great change, but would at least give some incentive to use him over Wesker STARS sometimes, especially on a stage like Ancient Ruins)
- sure
- idk about this change, maybe. on 1 hand neither wesker char needs a buff on the other no1 uses midnight.

Item/Ammo Drops:
I've been told that nothing is wrong item/ammo drops at all, however I've still thought of some things that could possibly be done to at least ease the certain games where characters such as Wesker, run out of ammo quite frequently. I've suggested that the hangun/machine gun ammo drop rate should slightly be increased on both character's sides if playing DUO, however since that would still rely too heavily on luck, I thought about these changes.

. handgun ammo received increased from 15 to 30
. magnum ammo received increased from 6 to 12
. nitrogen drops received increased from 3 to 6

The nitrogen may seem like a direct buff to Sheva Tribal and Chris STARS since even with how it is now, lucky drops can have players end up with a fully loaded Grenade launcher at 12 rounds in they are lucky enough. However, the drop rate for Nitrogen is so low that in most games you never really see a single one. The change in itself is debatable, and I don't doubt that a lot of other people would disagree with this change. It's just an idea I thought of.
As for the other two changes, they could either crowd up your inventory space more, or help save time from having to discard magnum or handgun ammo every time your partner needs it. It may or may not help in a solo game as well.
you know my thoughts on this, the drop rate is fine as it is. sometimes you run out of ammo, but shit happens and you just gotta deal with it. not everything needs to be fixed. also disagree with ammo drop amount changes, especially nitro.

Character Abilities:
This is an idea Sixpockets thought of where just like how Wesker has his dash, other characters should have their own special abilities as well. I forgot what examples he gave, but I agree 100% with this addition. It would add more to the meta game, maybe making things a bit more complex, but it would add balance nonetheless.
an idea i had for one of the char abilities (prob sheva) was ranged heal. she uses a fas from across the map and heals her partner. maybe it doesn't heal her, just her partner. haven't given much thought to what other abilities would be.

---Also another fun little addition I'd like to mention is to add all of the characters from Mercenaries Reunion into regular Mercenaries. The new characters there were pretty balanced, and well built in my opinion. They were just introduced into a version of the game that none of us could really get into, therefore us not getting a chance to really get into those new characters.
that's a given, and capcom was retarded to not add the new characters into mercs/vs in the first place.

kotier and i have very different views on a lot of things. he thinks all chars should be equally viable, i completely disagree. i like that some characters have a harder time than others, but still certain characters could stand to be buffed. maybe in a competitive game chars should be more equal. like in the vs mode slayers, almost everyone used wesker stars and it got a little old. survivors is more balanced in that respect and i'm fine with that. but in a coop mode like mercs, i don't really care if one char is op. you get the scores your character is able to get.

another thing we disagree on is he says re6/mercs reunion is harder than re5 mercs, but that's a different discussion.

anyway if capcom ever cared enough to do balance changes, they'd probably do something stupid like increase the damage of chris bsaa's hg.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 16, 2015, 09:30:08 PM
Ok, first of all, invite me to these discussions!! I used to think of all of these either by myself or with Damaja or Martin but none of us play anymore lol (I'd still enjoy pitching ideas though). Maybe we could livestream our discussions and grow a popular twitch channel. Soon enough we will have money, fame and TV networks knocking on our doors!!

Anyway, I personally think capcom had no intention of ever changing the characters balance. Part of the incentive to unlocking characters is that the one you unlocked got better and better (supposably). Wesker is 100% meant to be the strongest character in the game. I wouldn't like this for any other game (meaning a biased tier list) but since wesker is my fave character, I don't mind for re5.

I do think they should have kept up with patching the game's bugs (ex. First aid glitches on PA and MA. If you don't know the PA one I challenge you to find it haha). The increased ammo drops would create less randomness in games and make the game just slightly more skill based (players would get more consistent runs, more chances to show there full potential on a map and reach the score they should truly have).

I would have liked to see additional character and maps for DLC after launch. Hell  they made a whole game based on mercs so it should be popular enough to warrant DLC!!!

One character I'd like to see added to mercs is "Actual cannibal Shia Labeouf". He has the perfect persona to be in a resident evil game.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Sonico67 on September 16, 2015, 09:59:10 PM
I would more "rationally" expect updates coming in if it was just The Mercenaries as the main game which it certainly isn't. People don't buy this game to play Mercenaries and the ones that do, don't justify there been updates being issued for as the ROI for Capcom would be insignificant.

Having said that, I would not really change anything about this game other than connection issues rendering the duo experience annoying, but for its age I'd say even that is pretty "passable" and people should just upgrade their connection... but actually the only reason for me ranting about this is because my connection is a shitty one. lawl.



Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 16, 2015, 10:32:30 PM
I would more "rationally" expect updates coming in if it was just The Mercenaries as the main game which it certainly isn't. People don't buy this game to play Mercenaries and the ones that do, don't justify there been updates being issued for as the ROI for Capcom would be insignificant.

get outta here with ur logic


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 17, 2015, 06:32:29 AM
I would like a "Fix Patch" for RE5 The Mercenaries...
However... buffing characters or other stuff isn't a great idea Imo.

I like the game how it is, some luck, some skill, some bullshit... without this we don't have fun.





Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 17, 2015, 08:41:51 AM
I like the game how it is, some luck, some skill, some bullshit... without this we don't have fun

i agree with this for the most part, but some characters (sheva) just have too hard of a time compared to the others.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: TheDestinyHeart on September 17, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
i wouldnt change anything either
just fix some bug like boss explosion off host ,pr enemy stuck etc
also fix duo connection problems it gets really annoying most times


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 17, 2015, 12:27:11 PM
I like the game how it is, some luck, some skill, some bullshit... without this we don't have fun

i agree with this for the most part, but some characters (sheva) just have too hard of a time compared to the others.

I agree with your agreeing.
Sheva deserve a buff... like they did on Reunion, she is overpower there.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Damaja on September 17, 2015, 06:57:28 PM
i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 17, 2015, 08:02:59 PM
i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.
Yes but luck in games can also make a game more skillful. This doesn't make sense at first, but let me explain. Since luck plays a pretty big role in the outcome of a run/many runs, it's hard to determine whether a mistake was made on your behalf or if it was bad luck. At he same time, it's hard to say if you played more skillful than someone else, or just had a very lucky game. This is why bad poker players never get better, because they think when they lose it's bad luck, and when they win it is their skill. Most likely, it is vice versa. A skill a mercenaries player NEEDS to learn how to develop is the ability to say when they could have done something better, or improve something they do in general (average number of head shots per game) and not blame bad luck as much. Sometimes the game does give you some shit luck, but it is your job as a player to determine bad luck compared to bad skill.

This isn't targeted at you Damaja or anyone specific, just mercenaries players in general.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Damaja on September 17, 2015, 11:12:09 PM
i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.
Yes but luck in games can also make a game more skillful. This doesn't make sense at first, but let me explain. Since luck plays a pretty big role in the outcome of a run/many runs, it's hard to determine whether a mistake was made on your behalf or if it was bad luck. At he same time, it's hard to say if you played more skillful than someone else, or just had a very lucky game. This is why bad poker players never get better, because they think when they lose it's bad luck, and when they win it is their skill. Most likely, it is vice versa. A skill a mercenaries player NEEDS to learn how to develop is the ability to say when they could have done something better, or improve something they do in general (average number of head shots per game) and not blame bad luck as much. Sometimes the game does give you some shit luck, but it is your job as a player to determine bad luck compared to bad skill.

This isn't targeted at you Damaja or anyone specific, just mercenaries players in general.

well, i think you've known and played with me long enough to realize my luck with this game. whatever the case may be, this games bullshit got the best of me. and i'm glad to be done with it.

mods, feel free to add me to the official retired list... lol


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 18, 2015, 12:58:41 AM
syn knows what's up. a good player makes his own luck. lol.

damaja play?


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 18, 2015, 03:23:16 AM
i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.

While we're on this subject, it's time I gave my thoughts on the luck aspect of this game. To put it simply, I agree with Damaja on the game mainly relying on luck and here's why.

In my opinion, Wesker STARS is the only character that potentially doesn't need any luck in the game and does take the most skill to use over the rest. This would explain why he has the highest scores than the rest on the leader boards. The simple reason why is because his dash bypasses everything, and he has an overall good weapon load out. It's not really the fact that he's OP (even if he may be) but he's simply a character that a player can just play most of the time while not relying on luck all of the time despite certain aspects.

Synester, I remember when you mentioned in a call that having luck in a game like this makes it hard to judge a bad run either because a player was actually "doing bad" as apposed to them just having bad luck. As an example you mentioned that someone could claim to get too many crits in a game (let's assume they're playing Wesker), and it ultimately has them loose too much time because of the bullet kills or getting Cephalos in the process. Realistically they could have been going for more leg shots prior to those head-shots, but due to the lack of stuns they receive from the luck aspect (they were probably forced to use extra health and dash enemies that were weakened because of no stuns) they decided to try and go for head shots more often because at least if the game doesn't give you a critical hit, it's a guaranteed stun. (On Experimental Facility, even head shot stuns are not guaranteed and based on luck, but an every other stage they are)
  so someone who doesn't agree with me can say it was the player's fault for relying on head-shots and not shooting the leg more, but that's simply telling them to resort to a worse form of RNG with loosing extra health to dash from no stuns, and they could also be low on health already by doing that earlier and imply have no choice but to try for a more "RNG-Safe" option.

Here's a non Wesker example:
It's clear that any other character besides Wesker STARS 90% of the time will be going for leg stuns to build time. Leg stuns are NEVER guaranteed to happen.
The results you can get from shooting the leg are...
.the enemy grabs their leg for a short time --- stun
.the enemy falls on their knees for a short time  --- stun
.the enemy falls on their back --- a less reliable stun unless used correctly to set up multi-kills
.the enemy just flinches - not a stun

The characters are always going for the first two options, because if set up properly that will be a melee. Assume the above results are for REGULAR enemies. Here are your "skill" options if you get the 3rd result.
.you can wait for another enemy (if they are around) and go through the luck process again to try and set them up over the fallen enemy for a multi-kill
.you can wait for the fallen enemy to get up and lead them to another enemy to do the same as the above

If you get the 4th result after all shots are expired before the enemy dies here are your options.
.lead the enemy to another un-weakened enemy and go through the process with the un-weakened enemy to try and set up a multi-kill
.lead the weakened enemy to a timer (again IF you have one around at the time) and melee them with the timer
.use a flash grenade or a flash round to finish off the enemy (again, these are not always available)

And essentially all of these side options just waste extra time trying to save one melee for 5 seconds when you could have just gotten a viable stun result in the first place.

Now for non-wesker characters, let's say you run into a scripted Cephalo enemy. The basic way to stop this is to shoot them in the leg, and cancel it out right? Chris, Sheva, and Jill HAVE to do this if they want to still actively build time. You are still relying on the game's luck to give you that leg stun you will need to cancel that cephalo; because if you let the Cephalo spawn you will either have to improvise on meleeing it (which still wastes time regardless if it's done correctly or not, and that is also a 50% chance to do it correctly) or you will have to kill it. Wasting more time because of a lost melee.
For a scripted enemy that doesn't stun in the maximum amount of shots you can put into it, here are your melee options:

Chris STARS
. can use Nitrogen as a last resort (Nitrogen is not always available)
. after activating the cehpalo, can shoot it multiple times with a machine gun until it rolls on the ground, and with enough shots can stomp it resulting in a melee (Not guaranteed to work, the Cehpalo will usually die before it rolls)

Chris BSAA
.can shoot 5 handgun shots to the body of the Cephalo, then from a specific distance shoot it with a shotgun forcing it to the ground, then stomp. (Does not always work. It can be fairly consistent, but when you're in a group it's not worth it) 

Chris Safari
. certain handgun bullets plus shotgunning it t the ground will melee it (again not guaranteed)

Jill BSAA
. multiple shots with the machine gun will cause the cephalo to roll, and can result in a double knee drop melee if enough shots are connected (Cephalo is not guaranteed to roll)

Jill Battlesuit and Sheva BSAA
. both can either spam the cehalo wit hthe machine gun until it rolls for a successful melee, or mix up some sniper shots with it while rolling to Impale or Double Knee Drop (Not guaranteed, not to mention you are wasting a lot of time with this set up, it's better to kill the Ceph and move on)

Sheva Tribal
. Nitrogen on the weakened enemy before they take more damage (Nitrogen will not always be available)
. A lucky shot with one of the arrows will cause the Cehplo to roll on the ground, a second hit from an arrow will result in a melee with an Impale (Never guaranteed)
. Explosive rounds to force the ceph to the ground will result in a melee after significant damage has been done prior (Explosive rounds are never guaranteed, it also wastes and and is overall unsafe if other enemies are around)
 
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Most of you should already know this information on how to melee cephalos as other characters, but I am simply trying to point out that it's still all luck based. If you happened to get a stun, then you don't have to go through any of those above options. That's lucky. If you didn't and end up going through the above options, you've just entered the second stage of battle against the game's luck. Not only do you have to go through the same process with multiple enemies around you, but you also have to enter a THIRD stage of battle against the cephalo.

Now for those of you who still think it's less Luck based, and more skill, I will tell you what I think is the only proper "skill-based" choices you have when it comes to a scripted cephalo situation.
. choosing when to engage a scripted enemy (when to start shooting them)
. choosing which is the best method of dealing with a cephalo if forced to activate them (test your luck with a melee, or just kill it and move on)

Other luck based things I'd like to point out are:
.ammo drops
.herb drops
.grenade drops
.enemy spawns (on some maps)

All things that the player has no control over. Certain aspects will INFLUENCE these things, but it's still overall up to the game to decide whether or not you will get handgun ammo for Wesker STARS; if you will get a nitro drop for Sheva Tribal or Chris STARS; if you will get that scripted long pole enemy in Missile Area at the very start of the run, or near the end to screw you over on the combo only to start all over again; if you will get that one green herb drop so that you can stay alive as Wesker STARS.

Now I'm not saying the game is ALL luck based. There is definitely some skill to it, and things that can be the fault of the player and not blamed on luck itself. Here is a list of basic knowledge that is on the player's skill ability.

. knowing your character and all of their options
. knowing the enemy AI and how it works
. knowing where to be at certain times
. understanding all stages and their spawn points
. knowing when to go for timers
. knowing when to discard ammo and etc for your partner (another luck-based mechanic I don't feel like going over)
. perfecting your angel on enemies for multi-kills when you do get stuns
. not getting hit often (or at all in some cases)
. knowing how to handle crowds
. despite luck being a factor, finding the way to still consistently build time with little to no downtime between kills
. As mentioned by Synyster, knowing how to openly notice your own mistakes and learning from them instead of blaming luck 24/7 (Spawns, items drops for teammates, bullet kills, and responsibility for being somewhere at the right time are still factors you have some control over)


The main skill factor in this game is the mentality of the player as well. This game (and all other forms of Mercenaries that do exist out there) will take patience, and more often than not it will be a dice roll game that you will be playing 24/7. In this game you WILL need luck to get the best potential score, but you are still controlling the character behind the controller to test just how well you handle your own luck. With most of you here, the scores show that. They show how most of you handle your luck, or how you somehow turn bad luck in your favor. Wesker STARS scores simply show how hard you are willing to work for your achievement with little luck involved. Look at it however you want, luck is still there and it affects your gameplay one way or another.

I may have left out some parts in my argument because it's really late here, and I'm falling asleep :c I hope I at least showed my point well enough to you all. This is all just my opinion and all of you are free to disagree, but I would still like to know what you think in response.

P.S. Synyster  I spell your name wrong a few times in this post I think. Sorry for that xD

:woof:



Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 18, 2015, 11:07:19 AM
Kotier, I think you do understand my point before about players trying to realize what is bad luck, or bad skill on their part BUT the headshot example that you gave was not good. Saying that the player had to resort to a worse form of RNG by leg stunning is not correct. From experience, I know I will get a leg stun a large majority of the time. If I do not, I dash, which is also fine because you are getting 5 seconds and NOT a crit. I also know that criticals occur often enough that if you regularly go for them on PA, your runs will be ruined quite often. It is safer to always go for leg shots because there is less of a chance of a run being ruined by a crit or ceph (one crit or ceph pretty much ruins your chance of WR on PA).

You as a player need to set yourself up in the best position to get a high score and that is the skill of the game. Saying that the whole game is a dice roll is semi correct but would you rather use a 5 sided dice (die) or an 8 sided dice?

Other characters are harder. They have only one option usually: leg shot. If no stun happens time and time again, that is bad luck and there is nothing you as a player can change to fix that, but after MANY leg shots, the chance of getting a stun is always the same. You can use this knowledge to your advantage.

I also think it is funny Damaja said "you realize my (bad) luck with this game". Damaja, YOU don't have any specific luck with the game. We are all playing with the same odds/chances and over a large number of games, your skill shows through compared to your luck. If we both have played 100000 games of PA and I end up with a score 20k higher, that is not because I had better luck or you had worse. Over that many games WE BOTH HAD THE SAME ODDS, SAME CHANCES, SAME PROBABILITY OF CERTAIN THINGS HAPPENING. When there is a chance of something happening (say 12% chance a critical will occur) there is a chance you will get something like 15 crits out of 100, a SMALL chance. This is bad luck, sure BUT when you do 100000 headshots, IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE YOU WILL GET 13000 crits (13%). It is virtually impossible you will even get 12500 crits.

Read the first 3 paragraphs from this: https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html (https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html)
ESPECIALLY the 3rd paragraph, it gives a beautiful example of what I'm trying to say with coin flips.

Damaja, I'm not trying to rip you, but when you read my first post and then say how bad "YOUR" luck is, you clearly didn't take the time to understand what I was saying at first.

We are all playing the same exact game with the same odds built in. Sure, if we all played 3 games EVER, and then set the game down, the scores would most likely be determined by luck. But, since we have all played thousands upon thousands of games, the chances will always even out (example: EVERY players crit rate will always be 12%). In other words, we are all given the same opportunity.

It's funny because when I had to take statistics in school and we looked at the topic of "luck" I used to try and apply it to mercenaries lol!!! I'm a loser. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put people down on their views, just trying to let people see another view of the luck side of the game.

I want people to really read this and try to understand what I'm saying (it's hard to convey my ideas in the best possible way). Do not just comment something like "I've played this game enough to know I have shit luck" because I would have written all of this for nothing.

Read the first 3 paragraphs of the link above FULLY, and then reply to my comment on your views. This discussion is actually pretty good, and no fighting a be-littling.

EDIT: Read the 4th paragraph as well!! It tells you the odds of simply getting 1200 out of 2000 guesses correct of heads or tails. (Having 60% success compared to 50%). Compare this to something like headshots or ANY other probability in the game.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Damaja on September 18, 2015, 02:11:43 PM
Kotier, I think you do understand my point before about players trying to realize what is bad luck, or bad skill on their part BUT the headshot example that you gave was not good. Saying that the player had to resort to a worse form of RNG by leg stunning is not correct. From experience, I know I will get a leg stun a large majority of the time. If I do not, I dash, which is also fine because you are getting 5 seconds and NOT a crit. I also know that criticals occur often enough that if you regularly go for them on PA, your runs will be ruined quite often. It is safer to always go for leg shots because there is less of a chance of a run being ruined by a crit or ceph (one crit or ceph pretty much ruins your chance of WR on PA).

You as a player need to set yourself up in the best position to get a high score and that is the skill of the game. Saying that the whole game is a dice roll is semi correct but would you rather use a 5 sided dice (die) or an 8 sided dice?

Other characters are harder. They have only one option usually: leg shot. If no stun happens time and time again, that is bad luck and there is nothing you as a player can change to fix that, but after MANY leg shots, the chance of getting a stun is always the same. You can use this knowledge to your advantage.

I also think it is funny Damaja said "you realize my (bad) luck with this game". Damaja, YOU don't have any specific luck with the game. We are all playing with the same odds/chances and over a large number of games, your skill shows through compared to your luck. If we both have played 100000 games of PA and I end up with a score 20k higher, that is not because I had better luck or you had worse. Over that many games WE BOTH HAD THE SAME ODDS, SAME CHANCES, SAME PROBABILITY OF CERTAIN THINGS HAPPENING. When there is a chance of something happening (say 12% chance a critical will occur) there is a chance you will get something like 15 crits out of 100, a SMALL chance. This is bad luck, sure BUT when you do 100000 headshots, IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE YOU WILL GET 13000 crits (13%). It is virtually impossible you will even get 12500 crits.

Read the first 3 paragraphs from this: https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html (https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html)
ESPECIALLY the 3rd paragraph, it gives a beautiful example of what I'm trying to say with coin flips.

Damaja, I'm not trying to rip you, but when you read my first post and then say how bad "YOUR" luck is, you clearly didn't take the time to understand what I was saying at first.

We are all playing the same exact game with the same odds built in. Sure, if we all played 3 games EVER, and then set the game down, the scores would most likely be determined by luck. But, since we have all played thousands upon thousands of games, the chances will always even out (example: EVERY players crit rate will always be 12%). In other words, we are all given the same opportunity.

It's funny because when I had to take statistics in school and we looked at the topic of "luck" I used to try and apply it to mercenaries lol!!! I'm a loser. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put people down on their views, just trying to let people see another view of the luck side of the game.

I want people to really read this and try to understand what I'm saying (it's hard to convey my ideas in the best possible way). Do not just comment something like "I've played this game enough to know I have shit luck" because I would have written all of this for nothing.

Read the first 3 paragraphs of the link above FULLY, and then reply to my comment on your views. This discussion is actually pretty good, and no fighting a be-littling.

EDIT: Read the 4th paragraph as well!! It tells you the odds of simply getting 1200 out of 2000 guesses correct of heads or tails. (Having 60% success compared to 50%). Compare this to something like headshots or ANY other probability in the game.

it doesn't take a wall of text or the theory of probability to explain this games unending shenanigans. because having 14:40 at 145 more times than i can count with no 1100k sounds more like bad luck than anything else. if u ask me, placebo has a big effect on this game and the players.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 18, 2015, 02:19:48 PM
Kotier, I think you do understand my point before about players trying to realize what is bad luck, or bad skill on their part BUT the headshot example that you gave was not good. Saying that the player had to resort to a worse form of RNG by leg stunning is not correct. From experience, I know I will get a leg stun a large majority of the time. If I do not, I dash, which is also fine because you are getting 5 seconds and NOT a crit. I also know that criticals occur often enough that if you regularly go for them on PA, your runs will be ruined quite often. It is safer to always go for leg shots because there is less of a chance of a run being ruined by a crit or ceph (one crit or ceph pretty much ruins your chance of WR on PA).

You as a player need to set yourself up in the best position to get a high score and that is the skill of the game. Saying that the whole game is a dice roll is semi correct but would you rather use a 5 sided dice (die) or an 8 sided dice?

Other characters are harder. They have only one option usually: leg shot. If no stun happens time and time again, that is bad luck and there is nothing you as a player can change to fix that, but after MANY leg shots, the chance of getting a stun is always the same. You can use this knowledge to your advantage.

I also think it is funny Damaja said "you realize my (bad) luck with this game". Damaja, YOU don't have any specific luck with the game. We are all playing with the same odds/chances and over a large number of games, your skill shows through compared to your luck. If we both have played 100000 games of PA and I end up with a score 20k higher, that is not because I had better luck or you had worse. Over that many games WE BOTH HAD THE SAME ODDS, SAME CHANCES, SAME PROBABILITY OF CERTAIN THINGS HAPPENING. When there is a chance of something happening (say 12% chance a critical will occur) there is a chance you will get something like 15 crits out of 100, a SMALL chance. This is bad luck, sure BUT when you do 100000 headshots, IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE YOU WILL GET 13000 crits (13%). It is virtually impossible you will even get 12500 crits.

Read the first 3 paragraphs from this: https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html (https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html)
ESPECIALLY the 3rd paragraph, it gives a beautiful example of what I'm trying to say with coin flips.

Damaja, I'm not trying to rip you, but when you read my first post and then say how bad "YOUR" luck is, you clearly didn't take the time to understand what I was saying at first.

We are all playing the same exact game with the same odds built in. Sure, if we all played 3 games EVER, and then set the game down, the scores would most likely be determined by luck. But, since we have all played thousands upon thousands of games, the chances will always even out (example: EVERY players crit rate will always be 12%). In other words, we are all given the same opportunity.

It's funny because when I had to take statistics in school and we looked at the topic of "luck" I used to try and apply it to mercenaries lol!!! I'm a loser. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put people down on their views, just trying to let people see another view of the luck side of the game.

I want people to really read this and try to understand what I'm saying (it's hard to convey my ideas in the best possible way). Do not just comment something like "I've played this game enough to know I have shit luck" because I would have written all of this for nothing.

Read the first 3 paragraphs of the link above FULLY, and then reply to my comment on your views. This discussion is actually pretty good, and no fighting a be-littling.

EDIT: Read the 4th paragraph as well!! It tells you the odds of simply getting 1200 out of 2000 guesses correct of heads or tails. (Having 60% success compared to 50%). Compare this to something like headshots or ANY other probability in the game.

it doesn't take a wall of text or the theory of probability to explain this games unending shenanigans. because having 14:40 at 145 more times than i can count with no 1100k sounds more like bad luck than anything else.

Luck doesn't exist.
It's just a thing that people blame when things don't happen the way they want.
What really exists is probability.

Btw, 14:40 at 145 without the last timers, right?


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 18, 2015, 02:36:59 PM
OMG thank you stlmpp. And damaja, that wall of text still didn't get you to understand. I'm saying that there is no way having 14:40 at 145 that many times and not getting 1100k could be bad luck. It's not possible. If you play the game correctly, having 14:40 at 145 has a certain probability of working out. Let's say that probability is 10% (which is low). Let's say you've had 14:40 at 145, 100 times. It is almost impossible that bad luck would cause you to not get 1100k because theoretically, you will get it 10 times.

I said to read my post and think about it and to not respond about "your" bad luck, but you still did.

We all play under the same conditions and we all have the same luck. Many of us have 1100k so you have the same opportunities as us to get 1100k

There is no special force stopping you, only yourself

Additional Post Merged: September 18, 2015, 02:45:31 PM
Do not just comment something like "I've played this game enough to know I have shit luck"

it doesn't take a wall of text or the theory of probability to explain this games unending shenanigans.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Damaja on September 18, 2015, 06:14:19 PM
i'm pretty sure alot of shit in mercs is RNG related. crits, leg stuns, spawns. if it were really a fixed probability rate at which things occur, i'm sure that outcomes would be different. like, if i were to shoot 100 enemies in the face, maybe 15 crits would occur and 53 would occur during another trial. RNG = good/bad luck.

anyway, you do make some credible points, Syn. but don't bother arguing about it with me further. i'm an old soul when it comes to mercs and my opinions and mentality on the subject is hardened.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 18, 2015, 06:34:02 PM
Ya, you would get 15 one game and 50 another, but that is only 2 trials. In the long run (thousands of trials). The rate would be 12 percent.

Additional Post Merged: September 18, 2015, 06:34:45 PM
You just don't understand what I'm saying. You're saying exactly what I'm trying to prove is not true. But I can't explain it any other way


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 18, 2015, 09:08:22 PM
i get what syn is saying. out of all the thousands upon thousands of games we've played the probabilities even out. at that point the only thing holding you back is yourself.

Synester, I remember when you mentioned in a call that having luck in a game like this makes it hard to judge a bad run either because a player was actually "doing bad" as apposed to them just having bad luck. As an example you mentioned that someone could claim to get too many crits in a game (let's assume they're playing Wesker), and it ultimately has them loose too much time because of the bullet kills or getting Cephalos in the process. Realistically they could have been going for more leg shots prior to those head-shots, but due to the lack of stuns they receive from the luck aspect (they were probably forced to use extra health and dash enemies that were weakened because of no stuns) they decided to try and go for head shots more often because at least if the game doesn't give you a critical hit, it's a guaranteed stun. (On Experimental Facility, even head shot stuns are not guaranteed and based on luck, but an every other stage they are)
  so someone who doesn't agree with me can say it was the player's fault for relying on head-shots and not shooting the leg more, but that's simply telling them to resort to a worse form of RNG with loosing extra health to dash from no stuns, and they could also be low on health already by doing that earlier and imply have no choice but to try for a more "RNG-Safe" option.

sorry this is a retarded example. no stun is vastly preferred to chancing a crit or ceph.

Leg stuns are NEVER guaranteed to happen.

straight up wrong bro. get grabbed and shoot leg = leg stun. you know this but you said NEVER!!!


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 18, 2015, 10:00:43 PM
I'm just going to post a conversation between me and Sixpockets on skype (with his permission) since it would take me a bit too long to write another post myself (although I will make a more detailed reply in the future. This topic deserves a thread of it's own in my opinion)

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[7:28:56 PM] KotierWolf: If there is a situation where Wesker get's little to no stuns throughout the game and is forced to Dash often, he would more than likely be at really low health.
If no other enemies around you can simply heal through it, but if there are enemies around you will have to find time to heal up while still keeping up the time.
Now if you are out of aid sprays, and you didn't get any leg stuns, and say you can't dash. You're going to have no choice but to go for a head shot right? Because you can't dash, and going for no stun is a double edged sword.
[7:29:34 PM] KotierWolf: I'm basically saying RNG can lead you to lose health often, and go for a more safe option for a head shot and try to at least get a melee that way as wesker.
[7:29:56 PM] KotierWolf: Yeah head shots can lead to a more fucked choice with a ceph or a crit
[7:30:03 PM] KotierWolf: but sometimes that's the only choice you have
[7:30:13 PM] KotierWolf: especially in a group, with no healing or health left
[7:30:29 PM] KotierWolf: risk no stuns? Or a multi kill cobra strike with a head shot?
[7:30:32 PM] KotierWolf: RNG can have that happen
[7:30:40 PM] KotierWolf: and it won't be because of Wesker skill
[7:30:51 PM] KotierWolf: (although it could because health management is one of the skill factors)
[7:31:03 PM] KotierWolf: but it will be because the game randomness forced you there
[7:31:09 PM] KotierWolf: I've had games sometimes where that happened
[7:31:22 PM] KotierWolf: and I was forced to bullet kill many enemies because I didn't want to go for a head shot
[7:31:26 PM] KotierWolf: and I couldn't dash
[7:31:29 PM] KotierWolf: and no herbs dropped
[7:31:38 PM] KotierWolf: and the game was good up to that point
[7:31:41 PM] KotierWolf: I think it was on PS3
[7:31:49 PM] KotierWolf: My fault? Maybe
[7:32:12 PM] KotierWolf: but when it came to the game's choices I could have easily brought everything back and kept building time
[7:32:21 PM] KotierWolf: but game said NOPE at that point
[7:33:43 PM] SixPockets-: yea if that was the situation you should prob headshot. but wesker should be dashing a ton anyway and they should be able to connect the no stun dash to a double which would make it more than worth the health cost
[7:34:05 PM] SixPockets-: also some runs just arent meant to be, thats when you restart
[7:34:35 PM] SixPockets-: should be able to connect the no stun to a double some of the time i meant
[7:34:43 PM] KotierWolf: Restarts are the best way to mitigate the RNG, just start it over <3
[7:34:45 PM] KotierWolf: but
[7:34:49 PM] KotierWolf: the point is
[7:38:32 PM] KotierWolf: Yeah a skilled Wesker can usually avoid that situation:
perfect knee cannon connects, well set up dashes, etc. You can even manage your health well enough so that you will always have a dash available no matter what.

However, there will almost always be groups of enemies around to ruin your day with a dash, or no stuns, or critical shots that will force you to improvise. And when that happens (maybe it could be because of just ONE mistake) - you're left with RNG and luck to decide whether or not you can make up for a mistake, or save a game completely.

Characters other than wesker are always at the mercy of Luck due to their playstyle (Sheva Tribal is the best example. She only starts off with a couple of safe tools that always lead to some result, but after they are used up, all luck. Knife stuns, grenade drops, etc.)
[7:39:38 PM] KotierWolf: All this can lead to a luck battle with wesker
. getting hit out of dashes
. groups of enemies (if not handled properly in a short amount of time)
. bosses spawning at bad times
. running out of ammo (not your fault)
[7:39:52 PM] KotierWolf: low health
[7:40:12 PM] KotierWolf: All that will lead to you fighting to save a game
[7:40:15 PM] KotierWolf: with Luck
[7:40:38 PM] SixPockets-: yea but play enough and you will get your good high scoring games. which is what syn was trying to say
[7:41:25 PM] KotierWolf: It shouldn't be a game of "when will we get our score" it should be a game of "Will we do well enough this time to get our score" is the point.
[7:41:59 PM] KotierWolf: Luck in any aspect will potentially ruin a game completely, or make it fun. But that's not right in my opinion. You can have some luck in a game, but don't make it a major factor.
[7:42:47 PM] SixPockets-: then the more skillful you are the sooner you will get that game. lol
[7:43:24 PM] KotierWolf: May post this conversation as a reply on the site also. Too lazy to type again, lol
[7:43:32 PM] KotierWolf: Up to you though
[7:43:56 PM] SixPockets-: when i was playing more often a few months ago i was able to consistantly get 9:30 games on pa solo. its just a matter of time before the 10 minute game shows up
[7:44:12 PM] SixPockets-: yea post the convo
[7:46:13 PM] KotierWolf: Yeah but I bet certain things that happened in those games ruined you getting 10 minute games sooner.
I great test would be to have to non wesker players consistency "do well" in some sessions DUO or Solo, see what scores they end up getting and analyze what happens during those games.

I bet in EVERY single game played by anyone, something or a series of things happen they have no control over that makes them waste time or hold them back from a potential score they could, or could have gotten.
[7:47:47 PM] KotierWolf: If scores were kept track of
[7:47:58 PM] KotierWolf: I'm sure they would all be different
[7:48:10 PM] KotierWolf: Since this game relies on building time
[7:48:14 PM] KotierWolf: and every second is important
[7:48:38 PM] KotierWolf: little things like bad luck WILL ruin a score because some things take a huge gap of time away from you
[7:48:48 PM] KotierWolf: and it's usually not the player's fault
[7:50:25 PM] SixPockets-: but a good player will recover. and if not restart it wasnt meant to be. lol
[7:50:43 PM] SixPockets-: do your study, but youre wrong. youll have to face facts eventually

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What I'm basically getting at here is, you will definately be faced with luck on a daily basis with any character besides Wesker, and I've explained that already. However if you are playing Wesker STARS, you will be forced to engage in a luck battle if you make ONE mistake. In a perfect game (or we'll just say a good game) with little to no mistakes, then it would be safe to assume that there wasn't much luck holding you back, and you worked for the ending score. If there were struggling points within the game, I guarantee you relied on an RNG choice from the game in some aspect of that run and it either went well or didn't which would show in the ending score.  


To Synyster:
I haven't checked out that link yet, but I will get on it :)


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 18, 2015, 10:13:40 PM
each play session begins with rng: getting the spawn you want


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 18, 2015, 10:23:54 PM
Kotier, you're using to specific of an approach. Don't think of whether to headshot or leg shot. Think of it like this: we all have the exact same chance of certain things happening (12 percent crit rate). There are certain games where bad luck or good luck occurs but over a certain amount of games played, the statistics programmed into the game MUST remain true. We all have the same statistics and odds to work with so we are all on an even playing field. No one player is luckier than another. Sure, someone might get a really lucky game but EVERYONE has an equal chance of getting a lucky game. Probabilities don't lie and they are physically programmed into the game, the only person holding you back from getting a score is yourself. Answer this question kotier and damaja: how are there professional poker players when that whole game is luck based? Are they just way luckier than the average player? No. Luck is something constructed by the human mind, it is not real.

Additional Post Merged: September 18, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
Poker players use the odds of the game to make their decisions and ultimately, in the long run, make money from it. Sure, one day they may lose 100000 but in the long run, because of statistics, their SKILL males them money

Additional Post Merged: September 18, 2015, 10:27:53 PM
Kotier, there is RNG in this game, if not all games. In the end though, its the desicions of the player that determines their scores, not RNG


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 18, 2015, 10:43:49 PM
Kotier, you're using to specific of an approach. Don't think of whether to headshot or leg shot. Think of it like this: we all have the exact same chance of certain things happening (12 percent crit rate). There are certain games where bad luck or good luck occurs but over a certain amount of games played, the statistics programmed into the game MUST remain true. We all have the same statistics and odds to work with so we are all on an even playing field. No one player is luckier than another. Sure, someone might get a really lucky game but EVERYONE has an equal chance of getting a lucky game. Probabilities don't lie and they are physically programmed into the game, the only person holding you back from getting a score is yourself. Answer this question kotier and damaja: how are there professional poker players when that whole game is luck based? Are they just way luckier than the average player? No. Luck is something constructed by the human mind, it is not real.

Additional Post Merged: September 18, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
Poker players use the odds of the game to make their decisions and ultimately, in the long run, make money from it. Sure, one day they may lose 100000 but in the long run, because of statistics, their SKILL males them money

Additional Post Merged: September 18, 2015, 10:27:53 PM
Kotier, there is RNG in this game, if not all games. In the end though, its the desicions of the player that determines their scores, not RNG

Don't know much about Poker, but I heard a about it from a friend fairly recently. Apparently (according to him) poker isn't really about what you get, but how you deal with what you get. Pretty much who is the best liar or bluffer. You don't want people to know you have good cards, and you don't want people knowing you have bad cards either. Too confusing, I don't gamble so.... but still you need certain cards to win.
Besides poker, I have other people who agree with me that the majority of card games are luck based, and even on a game like Heartstone I'm sure there have been games where players are forced to concede because of a bad hand.

I agree we are all given the same potential and working the same numbers, and everyone deals with these certain numbers differently. However it doesn't change the fact what we are given to work with is not necessarily something we have full control over. Even if you play Wesker, I'm not afraid to say that no matter what character you go, scores will not always be the same even if you are 100% consistent in your choices or game play. That's simply because RNG is never consistent, luck isn't consistent. If you are going for the best score possible you're going to need good luck, or in your view dealing with the numbers given to us because the luck in this game does affect you every second. Like a said before time is the major factor in this game, and every second counts. If your not getting good results in that time frame that's a lot of potential lost, and in my opinion that's not terrible design, but it's not good game design either.

You can deal with the numbers as well as you want, you won't be able to control a point where bad RNG or bad luck still has the potential to take a good game or a potential good score away from you.
Or in a card game, you can play your hand well, but then an opponent can get a luck draw to turn it around, or they won't get anything to draw to defend against your play style. Not much you can do about that, no other way to deign a card game like that, but it's still a faulty design.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 19, 2015, 12:44:13 AM
Yes there are points where "bad luck" cripples you and there is nothing you can do, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that over hundreds and thousands of games, probabilities of that bad luck (example: getting a crit) will even out the same for every player (every player here has a 12 percent crit rate). You need to account for this in your gameplay and make decisions about when and how often you take a calculated risk and go for that headshot.

Yes kotier, all card games are "luck" based, I agree with that. But professional hearthstone or poker players are not simply more lucky than the average Joe. They know the correct decisions to make in order to swing probabilities in their favor.

My argument isn't that luck isn't involved in single games, there is always probabilities of everything happening (chance of leg stun, chance of a spawn). I'm saying that since there are probabilities programmed into the game or into a card game and everyone works with these same probabilities, so the determining factor of who has better scores is skill.

I need you to tell me why there is such a thing as a professional poker or hearthstone player and I can guarantee that by your logic, it is impossible.

Luck is not faulty design, and RNG is ALWAYS consistent. If the game is programmed to get a critical 12 percent of the time, everyone here will get a critical 12 percent of the time.

I can't explain my view any better but maybe sixpockets can, I don't wanna type virtually the same thing a different way over and over


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 19, 2015, 12:54:36 AM
ill try to dumb it down.

no1 lucky or unlucky

everytime you do something every1 have same chance do

therefore skill always win



Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 19, 2015, 12:56:23 AM
ill try to dumb it down.

no1 lucky or unlucky

everytime you do something every1 have same chance do

therefore skill always win



Thank you lol

Additional Post Merged: September 19, 2015, 12:56:55 AM
Kotier, read the link from earlier please


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Bocaj1010 on September 19, 2015, 02:04:10 AM
In retrospect this game makes me sick to my stomach. There were plenty of fun times, but the thought of ever grinding a map again for a score is nauseating. fuck cephalos and crits.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Damaja on September 19, 2015, 06:18:39 AM
you guys are really going all out to explain this games luck factor. the luck in this game is mostly situational so stop trying to explain with statistics and probability, because it's honestly not that deep lol. RNG=random=undefined=good/bad luck. luck is very prevalent in this game, just accept it.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: BlAcKJaCk19 on September 19, 2015, 06:46:13 AM
I think all of you raised valid points, I liked the discussion.

Only thing I would like to add is, yeah it probably makes sense that everything eventually evens out around the true score you desire/deserve (based on a very large large large sample size). The sample size itself is what differs among players and their skill set. It may take people 5000 runs to get  the score they want, and might take  1000 for others. I think it is better to base probabilities on solo rather than duo, duo is trickier as more variables factor in that eventually leads to a the score desired. For that reason and for the sake of simplicity it is better to argue from a solo perspective. AI is also affected by the system we play on, different conditions may affect the extra sample size required for the score.

As far as luck is concerned, it is there and we all know this; and yes, luck is a variable that ultimately affects scores. But when it is used as an excuse 24/7 then the player is obviously not there yet.

Anyway, just wanted to post my POV, hopefully not derailing from the discussion lol


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 19, 2015, 08:48:37 AM
you guys are really going all out to explain this games luck factor. the luck in this game is mostly situational so stop trying to explain with statistics and probability, because it's honestly not that deep lol. RNG=random=undefined=good/bad luck. luck is very prevalent in this game, just accept it.
"Luck" is just the unlikely thing happening. Damaja I'm sorry to say that bad luck is not the reason you dont have 110000k. It is an IMPOSSIBILITY that Ae and maxmartin have it 15 times or more and you can't get it once because of "bad luck". We are all playing the same version of the game so the choices you make, OVER TIME, determine your skill. In individual games, sure, there are lots of times where you make the right decision and get screwed but over such a large sample size, making the right decisions will ALWAYS get you the score you deserve.

Its frustrating you can't look at the game this way because every time you say " I swear I have the worst luck in this game" it makes zero sense.

Might as well blame god for not getting scores xD

Additional Post Merged: September 19, 2015, 08:53:43 AM
Yes blackjack, some people get scores quicker because they have made choices that give them a higher percent to get that score. My probability of getting 1100k is probably 1 in 1000 where max martin's is probably 1 in 100. He definitely has a higher probability of getting the WR, he just hasn't hit that roll yet and I have. He is playing with a dice that has less sides than mine, but I hit my role first. You could say that I got "lucky" but luck is a construct of the human mind, it does not exist. Probability does.

Additional Post Merged: September 19, 2015, 09:01:08 AM
someone has a 4 sided dice and someone else has a 6 sided dice and both are to roll until they get a 1. The 4 sided dice obviously has a greater chance of getting it firsr, but let's say it took the 4 sided dice 5 rolls to get it and the 6 sided dice only 1 roll. Now, you could say that person got lucky but now run the experiment 1000 times and you will see the 4 sided dice hit their roll 1 in 4 times, and the 6 sided dice hit theirs 1 in 6 times. Apply this to mercenaries and the likelyhood each seperate player will get a score. Maxmartin has the 4 sided dice and I have the 6. Why is that? Because max martin consistently makes better choices in game. Its not luck he keeps getting the 1100k time and time again and I've got it twice ever.

Additional Post Merged: September 19, 2015, 09:09:45 AM
I'm not disagreeing that what you call "luck" is in this game. My argument is: if you have the skill to get a certain score, you WILL get it eventually.you may have bad luck certain games, but it is set in the game that the bad luck you experience in those games MUST occur. It may be unlikely for something to happen, but it MUST occur. At the same time people may have really lucky games... OR the probabilities are working out in your favour, which also MUST happen. The tricky part about mercs is that all the probabilities could work out in a run until the last 10 kills, which is frustrating but if you are making the correct choices, you WILL get a score. Its not a coincidence Ae, martin, Tommi and basti consistently get world recordsand damaja has had 1 ever (no offense damaja). Would you go out on a limb and say your 1128k on prison was lucky?? Suddenly, you do not have the worst luck in the game haha or would you dare to say you are the best prison player?


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Damaja on September 19, 2015, 03:43:25 PM
i honestly think placebo plays a part in this game. i realized that whenever i was in a positive mindset the runs would go better and scores were more frequent. this whole past year, i've played just to get 1100 and never got it because i wasn't having fun playing the game. and i think that is what affected the choices i made because my judgment was clouded.

also, i can't believe i forget to mention the CONNECTION. lololol wow what a big difference the connection makes. Syn, can you honestly agree with me that me and you would have gotten that 1100 a dozen times if our connection was working the way it should on a regular basis? think about it, what has our mercs experiences been 9/10 times this past year? lag, lag, more lag. i'm sorry to make excuses, but speaking on our behalf only, that was the biggest factor over anything else.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 19, 2015, 04:49:13 PM
Ya my connection is a bitch. I'm just trying to make you realize that yes the game is full of RNG but you as a player can minimize it by the choices you make, your skill. We are all playing the same game, no one has worse luck than someone else, that makes no sense.

As for getting mad and playing "on tilt" that also has huge effects on gameplay


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 19, 2015, 08:02:55 PM
i think some people have a different definition of luck.

now getting back to the original topic, but also related to the current discussion, i think the knife should have a higher chance to stun on any given body part. say the current chance to leg stun with a gun is 30% (i have no idea what it is really) the knife would have a 45% chance.

this would help non-weskers who can't just dash if they don't get a stun.

as the knife is now, i think capcom just designed it to be a box opener because it does so little damage that there's no point in using it for that. and i doubt they were thinking of using it to get stuns in mercs when majini don't have enough health left to shoot them.

and i don't think it should act like the stun rod, just giving +5 sec for killing with it.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 21, 2015, 08:02:57 PM
i think some people have a different definition of luck.

now getting back to the original topic, but also related to the current discussion, i think the knife should have a higher chance to stun on any given body part. say the current chance to leg stun with a gun is 30% (i have no idea what it is really) the knife would have a 45% chance.

this would help non-weskers who can't just dash if they don't get a stun.

as the knife is now, i think capcom just designed it to be a box opener because it does so little damage that there's no point in using it for that. and i doubt they were thinking of using it to get stuns in mercs when majini don't have enough health left to shoot them.

and i don't think it should act like the stun rod, just giving +5 sec for killing with it.

I agree, but I would probably take it a couple of steps further and increase the stun rate done by all weapons. It would still rely on a random number, but there's really no way to fix that mechanic while keeping some balance at the same time.

I also disagree with Knife mechanic. (Being treated like a stun rod) - At least if it was given a +5 bonus on a kill, it would help nullify lost melee's for all the other characters. In my opinion, they need something to fall back on. The knife isn't fast enough to spam like in Mercenaries 3DS, and it hardly does any damage even if it was. The knife in this game is mainly used for stuns anyway, so at least if you didn't get one you would get some sort of reward for it. It wouldn't really become any more broken, or really anymore useful on a good run.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 21, 2015, 08:33:16 PM
current stun chance is fine imo.

but that'd make it too easy. it would be cool for village though i guess (knifing bui keechwa and kipepeopeopeoeoeopeoepeo)


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 22, 2015, 10:12:28 PM
current stun chance is fine imo.

but that'd make it too easy. it would be cool for village though i guess (knifing bui keechwa and kipepeopeopeoeoeopeoepeo)

At the moment it would be pretty useless to force melee's with a knife with most characters. Sadly it would encourage players to experiment and find ways to melee cephalos and such with a knife as a fall back, but the best runs will usually not involve using the knife for a melee kill whatsoever.

If you gave everyone a Stun Rod however...that would probably ruin or change gameplay completely despite the balance it would give.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 22, 2015, 10:59:47 PM
but the best runs will usually not involve using the knife for a melee kill whatsoever.

you can't know that


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 22, 2015, 11:30:38 PM
but the best runs will usually not involve using the knife for a melee kill whatsoever.

you can't know that

With Wesker or Chris STARS, I definitely know this to be true. Well set up dashes with Wesker or perfect stuns, or nitro will be those characters' best runs. You never even see anyone use a knife in a good run.

Other characters like Sheva and Jill would probably be affected by the change the most. Even then, I think it would only be treated as a fall back if things aren't going well.

current stun chance is fine imo.
I also degree with this in a lot of cases, but again it's based on chance and luck.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 23, 2015, 06:40:09 AM
You never even see anyone use a knife in a good run.

Ever watched my runs? xD
Usually, I use knife at HEAD, because it has a higher chance to stun, trust me.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Brawnysilverfox on September 23, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
I played for years and countless runs ruined by leg stun nonsense, ammo problems. But I would never blame any of it for my failure to get great scores, because a shitload of players pissed all over my scores despite only using BSAA as a second or third choice character.

Skill gets good scores over time regardless of luck.

Fnarrr.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 23, 2015, 02:47:57 PM
I played for years and countless runs ruined by leg stun nonsense, ammo problems. But I would never blame any of it for my failure to get great scores, because a shitload of players pissed all over my scores despite only using BSAA as a second or third choice character.

Skill gets good scores over time regardless of luck.

Fnarrr.
+100000000


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 23, 2015, 03:22:41 PM
You never even see anyone use a knife in a good run.

Ever watched my runs? xD
Usually, I use knife at HEAD, because it has a higher chance to stun, trust me.
Maybe on a few enemies, I've never seen a full video from you. But the stun chance is the same regardless of what weapon you use.

I played for years and countless runs ruined by leg stun nonsense, ammo problems. But I would never blame any of it for my failure to get great scores, because a shitload of players pissed all over my scores despite only using BSAA as a second or third choice character.

Skill gets good scores over time regardless of luck.

Fnarrr.
Luck and Skill work together well, but in this game you're always rolling a dice with chance no matter how you go about it; usually resulting in just increasing the amount of chances you have.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Brawnysilverfox on September 23, 2015, 04:36:39 PM
I had plenty of chances though and failed, yet other people could pick BSAA up and beat me with much less playtime with the character. You were one of those people lol. I could never blame it all on bad luck that's my point. I just didn't have the skill.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 23, 2015, 05:13:45 PM
You never even see anyone use a knife in a good run.

Ever watched my runs? xD
Usually, I use knife at HEAD, because it has a higher chance to stun, trust me.
Maybe on a few enemies, I've never seen a full video from you. But the stun chance is the same regardless of what weapon you use.

O.o same for every weapon? You ever used a knife to stun? I think not.
Well, never watched a video of me, and is saying that NO ONE uses the knife in a good run... well...


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 23, 2015, 07:12:19 PM
You never even see anyone use a knife in a good run.

Ever watched my runs? xD
Usually, I use knife at HEAD, because it has a higher chance to stun, trust me.
Maybe on a few enemies, I've never seen a full video from you. But the stun chance is the same regardless of what weapon you use.

O.o same for every weapon? You ever used a knife to stun? I think not.
Well, never watched a video of me, and is saying that NO ONE uses the knife in a good run... well...
I've used the knife many times, because I'm forced to with Chris BSAA and whenever I decide to use any Sheva character. I'm telling you the stun chance is the same for any weapon you use, and it doesn't matter who's playing. It's the same with the Samurai Edge, the Sig, and MP5, and any gun that is used for melee set ups. The only difference in chance are the critical headshots from all BSAA handguns which are far above anything else (because the main stat on the handguns are critical hit rates in the head). Don't really need a video to point that out.
I'm also saying that in a good run no one uses the knife, because over all the knife only wastes time if you don't get a stun prompt with it. If you do, you can potentially make the time back, but it's still overall slower than getting a stun in the first place with a gun, and it's extremely rare getting a stun with a knife.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 23, 2015, 10:06:16 PM
you're both saying the same thing lol, knife has a lower chance to stun than guns.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: BlAcKJaCk19 on September 24, 2015, 05:53:09 AM
I never really cared for Sheva Tribal as much until BenRai offered to try Tribal x2 runs. I've only just started to pay attention to knife stuns and its usefulness, based on my videos and the time spent using her, I do usually get the leg stun I want within the first 2-3 slashes, I used to think it was a coincidence (but I'm starting to think otherwise now). I do know for a fact that if you aim the tip of the knife on the stun locations it increases the odds of the stun.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 24, 2015, 08:29:33 AM
I think it's not totally random... don't know why, just played this game too much xD
About the weapons, saying all weapons has the same chance of stun is wrong. Each BULLETS has the same chance of stun.
E.g: You have a MG and a Pistol, the MG has a tolerance of 5 shots at leg before the majini die, and the Pistol has only 2.
With 5 shots you will have more chance of getting a stun instead of 2. (Obviously)


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 24, 2015, 03:48:49 PM
I think it's not totally random... don't know why, just played this game too much xD
About the weapons, saying all weapons has the same chance of stun is wrong. Each BULLETS has the same chance of stun.
E.g: You have a MG and a Pistol, the MG has a tolerance of 5 shots at leg before the majini die, and the Pistol has only 2.
With 5 shots you will have more chance of getting a stun instead of 2. (Obviously)
Weapon damage dealt to an enemy each gun is totally different than the chance of a stun given from each gun. You will have more or less chances based on gun damage obviously, but the chance of you getting the stun will still be the same. I've had games where I've gotten no stuns on an enemy with every single normal starting weapon.
You're talking about how many chances you get with a gun based on it's damage, and I'm talking about the chance of a stun in general. So when I saw each weapon has the same chance of a stun, I'm obviously referring to how the enemy will react after the first shot, including the knife, and all none powered guns used for such reason. Of course every weapon is going to have different chances based on the damage, but that's a given. Each weapon can potentially give you a stun on the first hit, and each can give you none at all is my point.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 24, 2015, 05:24:38 PM
I think it's not totally random... don't know why, just played this game too much xD
About the weapons, saying all weapons has the same chance of stun is wrong. Each BULLETS has the same chance of stun.
E.g: You have a MG and a Pistol, the MG has a tolerance of 5 shots at leg before the majini die, and the Pistol has only 2.
With 5 shots you will have more chance of getting a stun instead of 2. (Obviously)
Weapon damage dealt to an enemy each gun is totally different than the chance of a stun given from each gun. You will have more or less chances based on gun damage obviously, but the chance of you getting the stun will still be the same. I've had games where I've gotten no stuns on an enemy with every single normal starting weapon.
You're talking about how many chances you get with a gun based on it's damage, and I'm talking about the chance of a stun in general. So when I saw each weapon has the same chance of a stun, I'm obviously referring to how the enemy will react after the first shot, including the knife, and all none powered guns used for such reason. Of course every weapon is going to have different chances based on the damage, but that's a given. Each weapon can potentially give you a stun on the first hit, and each can give you none at all is my point.

Don't distort my explanation, you never said it was the first shot >:(
It's getting funny here, let me continue.

No, it's not totally random.
I can't prove it yet, but I'm pretty sure, at some moments (excluding the "after grab" one) you will certainly get a stun.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 24, 2015, 05:58:53 PM
i think kotier is just using the first shot thing as way of explaining his point. you both are in agreement but just arguing two different points it seems, and it's going nowhere.

and i'm still not sure what you're point is stlmpp. you think certain situations (like after getting grabbed but not that specifically) the stun chance is different? need examples.

I never really cared for Sheva Tribal as much until BenRai offered to try Tribal x2 runs. I've only just started to pay attention to knife stuns and its usefulness, based on my videos and the time spent using her, I do usually get the leg stun I want within the first 2-3 slashes, I used to think it was a coincidence (but I'm starting to think otherwise now). I do know for a fact that if you aim the tip of the knife on the stun locations it increases the odds of the stun.

that's interesting, might need to test that out.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 24, 2015, 07:17:05 PM
I think it's not totally random... don't know why, just played this game too much xD
About the weapons, saying all weapons has the same chance of stun is wrong. Each BULLETS has the same chance of stun.
E.g: You have a MG and a Pistol, the MG has a tolerance of 5 shots at leg before the majini die, and the Pistol has only 2.
With 5 shots you will have more chance of getting a stun instead of 2. (Obviously)
Weapon damage dealt to an enemy each gun is totally different than the chance of a stun given from each gun. You will have more or less chances based on gun damage obviously, but the chance of you getting the stun will still be the same. I've had games where I've gotten no stuns on an enemy with every single normal starting weapon.
You're talking about how many chances you get with a gun based on it's damage, and I'm talking about the chance of a stun in general. So when I saw each weapon has the same chance of a stun, I'm obviously referring to how the enemy will react after the first shot, including the knife, and all none powered guns used for such reason. Of course every weapon is going to have different chances based on the damage, but that's a given. Each weapon can potentially give you a stun on the first hit, and each can give you none at all is my point.

Don't distort my explanation, you never said it was the first shot >:(
It's getting funny here, let me continue.

No, it's not totally random.
I can't prove it yet, but I'm pretty sure, at some moments (excluding the "after grab" one) you will certainly get a stun.

The only moments you are guaranteed to get a stun from an enemy are hitting them in the leg while they grabbing your partner, or immediately after grabbing you from the front. If your timing is good you can stun them right before they grab you, (the help will flash on your nam for a se ond but they will go into a stun before they get the full grab animation on you, so its basically as if you helped yourself out of a grab)
But other than that, to my knowledge, leg stuns are random. You can argue that certain animations from enemies will increase your chance of getting a stun ( like missed grabs or missed swings from a weapon) and i would agree, but that's still based on chance, and I've still gotten no stuns even in those situations.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: BlAcKJaCk19 on September 25, 2015, 04:02:27 AM
how about stuns on slopped surfaces? like the stairs on AR and village? or the little wooden slopes on PA (water area)? my stuns work seem to work better over there.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: KotierWolf on September 25, 2015, 04:31:38 AM
how about stuns on slopped surfaces? like the stairs on AR and village? or the little wooden slopes on PA (water area)? my stuns work seem to work better over there.
Still the same in my opinion. From personal experience I've had the same results in stuns on all of those possible locations.
Just got done with a 2 hour grind on PA solo and spent a lot of unwanted time on most slopped surfaces (or non flat surfaces for a better term) and still had a lot of problems regarding stuns. Not saying any of it is wrong, but I'm had the same results even in the past.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Cally-Man on September 26, 2015, 05:41:31 AM
i'm pretty sure alot of shit in mercs is RNG related. crits, leg stuns, spawns. if it were really a fixed probability rate at which things occur, i'm sure that outcomes would be different. like, if i were to shoot 100 enemies in the face, maybe 15 crits would occur and 53 would occur during another trial. RNG = good/bad luck.

Y'know, this sounds weird but I did hear of an experiment that proved how the human consciousness can affect a randomly generated number system. So it could be that the pro players like Syn, Martin, Ae etc... who believe anything is possible, are able to influence the software in a way. :p When I see how smoothly their runs go it almost looks like they're playing another version of the game.

But anyway, I wouldn't change much in Mercs. Just the glitches like someone mentioned earlier like exploding bosses after they've already been shot and disappearing items. One thing I would like though is for Wesker to have additional abilities, like his dodge in the story. I've said it before, and it could work by pressing A/X + any direction during a dash charge to cancel it and dodge an attack.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Synyster on September 26, 2015, 10:08:22 AM
i'm pretty sure alot of shit in mercs is RNG related. crits, leg stuns, spawns. if it were really a fixed probability rate at which things occur, i'm sure that outcomes would be different. like, if i were to shoot 100 enemies in the face, maybe 15 crits would occur and 53 would occur during another trial. RNG = good/bad luck.

Y'know, this sounds weird but I did hear of an experiment that proved how the human consciousness can affect a randomly generated number system. So it could be that the pro players like Syn, Martin, Ae etc... who believe anything is possible, are able to influence the software in a way. :p When I see how smoothly their runs go it almost looks like they're playing another version of the game.

But anyway, I wouldn't change much in Mercs. Just the glitches like someone mentioned earlier like exploding bosses after they've already been shot and disappearing items. One thing I would like though is for Wesker to have additional abilities, like his dodge in the story. I've said it before, and it could work by pressing A/X + any direction during a dash charge to cancel it and dodge an attack.

What exactly do you mean when you say that we believe anything is possible? I would say that statement applies to people that think one person has worse luck than another. I think pro players are pro because they have used their knowledge of the game and play so that they give themselves the best chance of getting a score.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 26, 2015, 10:42:23 AM
i'm pretty sure alot of shit in mercs is RNG related. crits, leg stuns, spawns. if it were really a fixed probability rate at which things occur, i'm sure that outcomes would be different. like, if i were to shoot 100 enemies in the face, maybe 15 crits would occur and 53 would occur during another trial. RNG = good/bad luck.

Y'know, this sounds weird but I did hear of an experiment that proved how the human consciousness can affect a randomly generated number system. So it could be that the pro players like Syn, Martin, Ae etc... who believe anything is possible, are able to influence the software in a way. :p When I see how smoothly their runs go it almost looks like they're playing another version of the game.

But anyway, I wouldn't change much in Mercs. Just the glitches like someone mentioned earlier like exploding bosses after they've already been shot and disappearing items. One thing I would like though is for Wesker to have additional abilities, like his dodge in the story. I've said it before, and it could work by pressing A/X + any direction during a dash charge to cancel it and dodge an attack.

What exactly do you mean when you say that we believe anything is possible? I would say that statement applies to people that think one person has worse luck than another. I think pro players are pro because they have used their knowledge of the game and play so that they give themselves the best chance of getting a score.

He said something about the Law of Attraction...
It works somehow.

@stevo

E.g: When a majini from wetland (cannibal?), is try to grab you with his spear (that one, he raise you up with his spear), if you shoot in his leg, for example, the chance of getting a stun is about 90%, I mean. It's not totally random.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: SixPockets392 on September 26, 2015, 06:44:29 PM
Y'know, this sounds weird but I did hear of an experiment that proved how the human consciousness can affect a randomly generated number system. So it could be that the pro players like Syn, Martin, Ae etc... who believe anything is possible, are able to influence the software in a way. :p When I see how smoothly their runs go it almost looks like they're playing another version of the game.

so basically just be more positive.

@stevo

E.g: When a majini from wetland (cannibal?), is try to grab you with his spear (that one, he raise you up with his spear), if you shoot in his leg, for example, the chance of getting a stun is about 90%, I mean. It's not totally random.

how useful is that though?


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: stLmpp on September 26, 2015, 08:03:57 PM
@stevo

E.g: When a majini from wetland (cannibal?), is try to grab you with his spear (that one, he raise you up with his spear), if you shoot in his leg, for example, the chance of getting a stun is about 90%, I mean. It's not totally random.

how useful is that though?

What do you mean?
We're saying about usefulness or random things? I thought it was random stuff.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Sonico67 on November 06, 2015, 08:32:08 PM
Add the character high score that is currently selected, like RE6. It would go a long way here when playing in the lobby, I could care less about it being on RE6, unfortunately.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Brawnysilverfox on November 06, 2015, 09:29:39 PM
And a fucking spawn selector plz


Chris BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F  handgun
. increase the power of the Ithaca M37 shotgun

Its the spread of the shotgun that bothers me, it can do like 2700 damage but unless the end of the gun is sat on an enemys chest some pellets will miss. No shotgun should take sometimes 3 hits to kill an 800 health majini at short range.

Also agree with six he shouldnt be going for headshots with HG, we all know what safaris like if you try a headshot heavy PA run. All well and good for 40-50 kills then its nothing but crits and cephs

some characters (sheva) just have too hard of a time compared to the others.

She could and should have been so much better, her head stun melee is awesome for crowd control since it hits enemies behind. BSAA and tribal cant really use it and Blackjack & ben will say its not really worth it with clubbin either. Imagine if BSAA had low crit rate and double fang, what a difference. Both female characters got short changed really, how bad would jill be without multi machine DKD




Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: BenRai2k on November 09, 2015, 08:39:04 AM

She could and should have been so much better, her head stun melee is awesome for crowd control since it hits enemies behind. BSAA and tribal cant really use it and Blackjack & ben will say its not really worth it with clubbin either. Imagine if BSAA had low crit rate and double fang, what a difference. Both female characters got short changed really, how bad would jill be without multi machine DKD


First time here in forever, saw this and thought I'd reply since you bring my name up.

In a crazy way - I am happy Sheva never had double fang on regular mercs, and I know Blacky is as well. it would have just turned her in to an African Jill. Drop 'em and double fang 'em. That is why I found Jill gameplay usually boring for the most part, it was mostly knee drops. Especially solo.

I found the challenge of improvising with Sheva BSAA and Tribal to be great fun, as well as infuriating. As much as I wish she had a magnum at times as I played - I am glad she was such a disadvantaged character that people scoffed at. That is what drove me and Blacky to use her really.

I know no one used the acid or flame rounds followed by a knife slash to ground Wetland majinis before my video, and I know people were surprised to see me shoot an acid right in front of a flashes majini and delay melee roundhouse it at the same time. Heck, even earlier in the year before Blacky quit mercs we both made a new strat for Sheva BSAA on prison so he could get the highest score on solo there, and it worked. We also devised a slightly different strat for x2 Sheva center prison strat, though higher has been done separate, still none higher have been done in center, more so on PS3. One of the last things we devised was a new strat for x2 Tribal on EF, and we almost beat the broken combo highscore for x2 with an actual full combo - not just ice luck and letting the combo break etc. The end was terrible on our run, so we could have smashed that score probably with a good end. I think that was the last time I ever played mercs before I sold my ps3.

Sheva's limitations (BSAA/tribal) Kept our brains busy, kept us trying new things, new strats. I know I've seen a few of my tribal solo strats that I devised used on videos as far as this year and I quit in 2013 pretty much. Someone has even made an account "BenRai13" as recent as earlier this year or something like that Lol.

So the point of my post is, as much as at the time on hard runs I wish she had been stronger...I wouldn't want her any different. Re5 Mercs was much more in favour of certain characters but it kept gameplay unique, different and runs were different between characters. Unlike RE6 where essentially every character was pretty much the same since it was just about countering. Only difference was the boss killing weapon which could make or break a run at the end.

Re5 mercs was great fun - and an accident it was so good. Capcom tried too hard with 6's and 3ds. Me and Blacky don't have Ps3s anymore, we moved to PS4. But we have fond memories of the strats and tricks we devised, and scores we got on the most inferior version. Part of me wishes Blacky really did go to PC and play, I know he'd do amazing for Sheva there. Her PC potential is no way neat met solo or duo. However, he ain't got time for that or interest now. 

 


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: Brawnysilverfox on November 09, 2015, 08:46:31 AM
Sure it was interesting wathcing you guys improvise with tribal....most unique character since shes the only one without a gun. You did some great stuff with her that not many people would have patience/skill to get.

But talking bsaa, surely you would have liked 2hg + somersault to get a kill? wouldnt have changed her THAT much. And c'mon, there must have been times where you wished you could fire off a headshot to get a roundhouse lol. I can see your point about the double fang though.


Title: Re: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~
Post by: BenRai2k on November 09, 2015, 08:52:15 AM
Sure it was interesting wathcing you guys improvise with tribal....most unique character since shes the only one without a gun. You did some great stuff with her that not many people would have patience/skill to get.

But talking bsaa, surely you would have liked 2hg + somersault to get a kill? wouldnt have changed her THAT much. And c'mon, there must have been times where you wished you could fire off a headshot to get a roundhouse lol. I can see your point about the double fang though.

I think 2 shot somersault is possible in No Mercy and it felt like a breath of fresh air.

I'd have been fine with better headshot capabilities. But again, it was the leg stuns failing that bought all the hair-ripping, teeth smashing, head banging moments I look back on fondly...