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Author Topic: ~Brainstorming Changes to Mercenaries~  (Read 2484 times)
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KotierWolf
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« on: September 16, 2015, 03:05:33 AM »

While hanging out with Sixpockets, we eventually started talking about some changes would like to see in Resident Evil 5: The Mercenaries mode, and I've decided to post the ideas that were brought up here.

Incoming wall text of ranting that may or may not be relevant:

As a bit of an explanation, most games nowadays (such as Super Smash Bros. Wii U, and Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn to name a couple that I avidly play myself) receive periodic balance adjustments and patches to affect the overall game play. This differs from class/job specific changes to an MMO to also changes to characters in a fighting game.

This is something that really lacked in Resident Evil 5 and 6, specifically no love given to the Mercenaries modes. This could possibly be because the modes weren't popular enough, or the developers simply didn't plan on showing much attention the Mercenaries mode alone. Due to the lack of attention, the developers more than likely are unaware of what actually would need to be changed. This is because they probably do not play the game like the majority of us here do. Granted, that would sound strange as they were the ones who developed the concept in the first place (Build as much time as possible to gain the max points by the end; hold the boss until the very end to gain extra points in RE6 and Mercenaries Reunion, etc) however the argument could also be made that us "professional" mercs players simply exploited certain aspects of the game to a degree that the company didn't expect. Either way, if you compare the casual crowd to the professional crowd I'd say the casual crowd is who Capcom tried catering to the most.

To sum it up, I think Mercenaries would have been a much better enjoyment if Capcom did analyze how we played a lot earlier, and made changes to keep up with character balance and stayed with the point system we all enjoyed better. So I brought this up with Sixpockets recently and I asked him, if Capcom did pay more attention to the game mode and made certain changes and updates based on the current meta game that we created, what would he like to see? I've decided to post my ideas here, most I've got from Six while agreeing with him.
Note: This are just changes I'd like to see be done and some may not be that good, or logical at all, and all of you have a right to disagree. These are also strictly for RE5 Mercenaries Mode.

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----
----

General Character Changes

Chris Redfield:
. shorten the animation of Neck Breaker

Sheva Alomar:
. shorten the animation of Throat Slit
. either shorten the animation of Impale, or replace Impale with Double Fang from Mercenaries Reunion
. increase the power of Somersault slightly

Jill Valentine
. shorten the animation of Head Grab
. shorten the animation of Double Knee Drop
. increase the power of High Kick slightly (maybe to match Chris' Straight Punch)


Character Specific Changes

Chris BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F handgun
. increase the power of the Ithaca M37 shotgun

Chris Safari:
. lower the power of the SIG P226 handgun (this would nerf his head shot into Straight Punch meta game, but influence more leg shots into uppercuts which in my opinion would serve as a more rewarding play-style.)

Sheva BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F handgun
. either increase the power of the M92F handgun slightly, or refer to the previous character change of increasing the power of her Summersault
. increase the power of the Dragunov SVD sniper rifle

Cheva Clubbin' :
. either increase the power of the S75 sniper rifle or increase the power of the Jail Breaker shotgun (I've suggested removing the sniper rifle from the inventory completely and increasing the damage of the Jail Breaker, however the sniper is still good for helping with Big Man Majini and Cephalo melee's so that is up for debate)

Sheva Tribal:
. add the H&K MP5 machine gun to the load out (This is a machine gun she actually starts out with in the versus mode: Survivors.)
. shorten the recovery time after each arrow shot from the Longbow

Jill BSAA:
. remove the high critical hit rate on the Px4 handgun
. increase the power of the H&K MP5 machine gun (This is to make it easier for her to solo most bosses, it may change how she melee's Big Man Majini's but I feel it would be an overall buff for her)

Jill Battlesuit:
. increase the power of the PSG-1 sniper rifle (Again, it may change some melee's but speeds up boss kills which is what holds characters back most of the time)

Wesker Midnight:
. remove the Proximity Bombs from the load out (I think we all know those are basically used as little as the character itself in serious play nowadays. They're just an inconvenience to discard as well, since it wastes time overall.)
. replace the 5 Hand Grenades with 5 Flash Grenades (Not a great change, but would at least give some incentive to use him over Wesker STARS sometimes, especially on a stage like Ancient Ruins)

General Gameplay Changes:

Item/Ammo Drops:
I've been told that nothing is wrong item/ammo drops at all, however I've still thought of some things that could possibly be done to at least ease the certain games where characters such as Wesker, run out of ammo quite frequently. I've suggested that the hangun/machine gun ammo drop rate should slightly be increased on both character's sides if playing DUO, however since that would still rely too heavily on luck, I thought about these changes.

. handgun ammo received increased from 15 to 30
. magnum ammo received increased from 6 to 12
. nitrogen drops received increased from 3 to 6

The nitrogen may seem like a direct buff to Sheva Tribal and Chris STARS since even with how it is now, lucky drops can have players end up with a fully loaded Grenade launcher at 12 rounds in they are lucky enough. However, the drop rate for Nitrogen is so low that in most games you never really see a single one. The change in itself is debatable, and I don't doubt that a lot of other people would disagree with this change. It's just an idea I thought of.
As for the other two changes, they could either crowd up your inventory space more, or help save time from having to discard magnum or handgun ammo every time your partner needs it. It may or may not help in a solo game as well.

Character Abilities:
This is an idea Sixpockets thought of where just like how Wesker has his dash, other characters should have their own special abilities as well. I forgot what examples he gave, but I agree 100% with this addition. It would add more to the meta game, maybe making things a bit more complex, but it would add balance nonetheless.

---Also another fun little addition I'd like to mention is to add all of the characters from Mercenaries Reunion into regular Mercenaries. The new characters there were pretty balanced, and well built in my opinion. They were just introduced into a version of the game that none of us could really get into, therefore us not getting a chance to really get into those new characters.

---
---
---

Those are basically all of the changes I can think of at this point. Most are my own ideas, however some where from Sixpockets as well. They all are mostly buffs to other characters, but that's to add to the diversity of the game so players don't feel so limited to a single character that's viable. Trust me in a "competitive" game, that's the last thing you would want. Some of my ideas I got from seeing other changes done to other games. Are there any changes any of you might want to add? Some changes here you don't agree with? I'd like to see your input.

As a side note: I understand this game is really old and more than half of us are not even playing anymore, but it's still fun to think about stuff like this in my opinion. We also can't deny that some of us still come back to this game, and if it were given more attention we probably would have played longer.

Woof!
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SixPockets392
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2015, 10:09:55 AM »

damn you went all out. ill give a more detailed response later


Additional Post Merged: September 16, 2015, 06:04:33 PM
Chris Redfield:
. shorten the animation of Neck Breaker
disagree, chris already has 1 of the best melee sets in the game, no need for buff to any imo.

Chris Redfield:
Sheva Alomar:
. shorten the animation of Throat Slit
. either shorten the animation of Impale, or replace Impale with Double Fang from Mercenaries Reunion
. increase the power of Somersault slightly
yep yep. somersault so bsaa can melee after 2 hg shots especially. her melee set sucks so she needs all the help she can get.

Jill Valentine
. shorten the animation of Head Grab
. shorten the animation of Double Knee Drop
. increase the power of High Kick slightly (maybe to match Chris' Straight Punch)
na disagree on all except last which im impartial to. what she really needs is to make her front leg stun melee not hit heads so often so she's not always relying on dkd.
- head grab i feel like it being slow is her offset to having such a powerful ground melee. plus it can knock down other enemies. idk wouldnt mind the change i guess.
- dkd again animation is slow but it's an op move so who cares.

Chris BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F handgun
. increase the power of the Ithaca M37 shotgun
- eh he doesn't really need the first change it's not like he should be shooting heads anyway
- sure increased shotty damage would be nice

Chris Safari:
. lower the power of the SIG P226 handgun (this would nerf his head shot into Straight Punch meta game, but influence more leg shots into uppercuts which in my opinion would serve as a more rewarding play-style.)
- mixed on this, on 1 hand it'd probably be a better playstyle but on the other hand he'd just be a better chris bsaa
i think his shotgun should be a it better atleast.

Sheva BSAA:
. remove the critical hit rate specs on the M92F handgun
. either increase the power of the M92F handgun slightly, or refer to the previous character change of increasing the power of her Summersault
. increase the power of the Dragunov SVD sniper rifle
- again she doesn't need to be doing headshots
- yep
- sure

Cheva Clubbin' :
. either increase the power of the S75 sniper rifle or increase the power of the Jail Breaker shotgun (I've suggested removing the sniper rifle from the inventory completely and increasing the damage of the Jail Breaker, however the sniper is still good for helping with Big Man Majini and Cephalo melee's so that is up for debate)
- jailbreak buff fine, s75 should get a huge damage buff. that thing should be as strong as a magnum.

Sheva Tribal:
. add the H&K MP5 machine gun to the load out (This is a machine gun she actually starts out with in the versus mode: Survivors.)
. shorten the recovery time after each arrow shot from the Longbow
- yep she needs something to melee more consistently
- yes something like that. i always wished her bow was like krauser's in re4. in re5 sheva nocks an arrow then you let go of the aim button and she has to put the arrow back before she can get moving again but in re4 krauser can just instantly start running again after letting go of aim. always annoyed me.

Jill BSAA:
. remove the high critical hit rate on the Px4 handgun
. increase the power of the H&K MP5 machine gun (This is to make it easier for her to solo most bosses, it may change how she melee's Big Man Majini's but I feel it would be an overall buff for her)
- disagree the high crit rate the px4 has is its niche, whether it's useful in mercs or not.
- sure

Jill Battlesuit:
. increase the power of the PSG-1 sniper rifle (Again, it may change some melee's but speeds up boss kills which is what holds characters back most of the time)
- sure

Wesker Midnight:
. remove the Proximity Bombs from the load out (I think we all know those are basically used as little as the character itself in serious play nowadays. They're just an inconvenience to discard as well, since it wastes time overall.)
. replace the 5 Hand Grenades with 5 Flash Grenades (Not a great change, but would at least give some incentive to use him over Wesker STARS sometimes, especially on a stage like Ancient Ruins)
- sure
- idk about this change, maybe. on 1 hand neither wesker char needs a buff on the other no1 uses midnight.

Item/Ammo Drops:
I've been told that nothing is wrong item/ammo drops at all, however I've still thought of some things that could possibly be done to at least ease the certain games where characters such as Wesker, run out of ammo quite frequently. I've suggested that the hangun/machine gun ammo drop rate should slightly be increased on both character's sides if playing DUO, however since that would still rely too heavily on luck, I thought about these changes.

. handgun ammo received increased from 15 to 30
. magnum ammo received increased from 6 to 12
. nitrogen drops received increased from 3 to 6

The nitrogen may seem like a direct buff to Sheva Tribal and Chris STARS since even with how it is now, lucky drops can have players end up with a fully loaded Grenade launcher at 12 rounds in they are lucky enough. However, the drop rate for Nitrogen is so low that in most games you never really see a single one. The change in itself is debatable, and I don't doubt that a lot of other people would disagree with this change. It's just an idea I thought of.
As for the other two changes, they could either crowd up your inventory space more, or help save time from having to discard magnum or handgun ammo every time your partner needs it. It may or may not help in a solo game as well.
you know my thoughts on this, the drop rate is fine as it is. sometimes you run out of ammo, but shit happens and you just gotta deal with it. not everything needs to be fixed. also disagree with ammo drop amount changes, especially nitro.

Character Abilities:
This is an idea Sixpockets thought of where just like how Wesker has his dash, other characters should have their own special abilities as well. I forgot what examples he gave, but I agree 100% with this addition. It would add more to the meta game, maybe making things a bit more complex, but it would add balance nonetheless.
an idea i had for one of the char abilities (prob sheva) was ranged heal. she uses a fas from across the map and heals her partner. maybe it doesn't heal her, just her partner. haven't given much thought to what other abilities would be.

---Also another fun little addition I'd like to mention is to add all of the characters from Mercenaries Reunion into regular Mercenaries. The new characters there were pretty balanced, and well built in my opinion. They were just introduced into a version of the game that none of us could really get into, therefore us not getting a chance to really get into those new characters.
that's a given, and capcom was retarded to not add the new characters into mercs/vs in the first place.

kotier and i have very different views on a lot of things. he thinks all chars should be equally viable, i completely disagree. i like that some characters have a harder time than others, but still certain characters could stand to be buffed. maybe in a competitive game chars should be more equal. like in the vs mode slayers, almost everyone used wesker stars and it got a little old. survivors is more balanced in that respect and i'm fine with that. but in a coop mode like mercs, i don't really care if one char is op. you get the scores your character is able to get.

another thing we disagree on is he says re6/mercs reunion is harder than re5 mercs, but that's a different discussion.

anyway if capcom ever cared enough to do balance changes, they'd probably do something stupid like increase the damage of chris bsaa's hg.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 06:12:19 PM by SixPockets392 » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2015, 09:30:08 PM »

Ok, first of all, invite me to these discussions!! I used to think of all of these either by myself or with Damaja or Martin but none of us play anymore lol (I'd still enjoy pitching ideas though). Maybe we could livestream our discussions and grow a popular twitch channel. Soon enough we will have money, fame and TV networks knocking on our doors!!

Anyway, I personally think capcom had no intention of ever changing the characters balance. Part of the incentive to unlocking characters is that the one you unlocked got better and better (supposably). Wesker is 100% meant to be the strongest character in the game. I wouldn't like this for any other game (meaning a biased tier list) but since wesker is my fave character, I don't mind for re5.

I do think they should have kept up with patching the game's bugs (ex. First aid glitches on PA and MA. If you don't know the PA one I challenge you to find it haha). The increased ammo drops would create less randomness in games and make the game just slightly more skill based (players would get more consistent runs, more chances to show there full potential on a map and reach the score they should truly have).

I would have liked to see additional character and maps for DLC after launch. Hell  they made a whole game based on mercs so it should be popular enough to warrant DLC!!!

One character I'd like to see added to mercs is "Actual cannibal Shia Labeouf". He has the perfect persona to be in a resident evil game.
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2015, 09:59:10 PM »

I would more "rationally" expect updates coming in if it was just The Mercenaries as the main game which it certainly isn't. People don't buy this game to play Mercenaries and the ones that do, don't justify there been updates being issued for as the ROI for Capcom would be insignificant.

Having said that, I would not really change anything about this game other than connection issues rendering the duo experience annoying, but for its age I'd say even that is pretty "passable" and people should just upgrade their connection... but actually the only reason for me ranting about this is because my connection is a shitty one. lawl.

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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2015, 10:32:30 PM »

I would more "rationally" expect updates coming in if it was just The Mercenaries as the main game which it certainly isn't. People don't buy this game to play Mercenaries and the ones that do, don't justify there been updates being issued for as the ROI for Capcom would be insignificant.

get outta here with ur logic
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 06:32:29 AM »

I would like a "Fix Patch" for RE5 The Mercenaries...
However... buffing characters or other stuff isn't a great idea Imo.

I like the game how it is, some luck, some skill, some bullshit... without this we don't have fun.



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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 08:41:51 AM »

I like the game how it is, some luck, some skill, some bullshit... without this we don't have fun

i agree with this for the most part, but some characters (sheva) just have too hard of a time compared to the others.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2015, 11:23:40 AM »

i wouldnt change anything either
just fix some bug like boss explosion off host ,pr enemy stuck etc
also fix duo connection problems it gets really annoying most times
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2015, 12:27:11 PM »

I like the game how it is, some luck, some skill, some bullshit... without this we don't have fun

i agree with this for the most part, but some characters (sheva) just have too hard of a time compared to the others.

I agree with your agreeing.
Sheva deserve a buff... like they did on Reunion, she is overpower there.
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2015, 06:57:28 PM »

i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2015, 08:02:59 PM »

i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.
Yes but luck in games can also make a game more skillful. This doesn't make sense at first, but let me explain. Since luck plays a pretty big role in the outcome of a run/many runs, it's hard to determine whether a mistake was made on your behalf or if it was bad luck. At he same time, it's hard to say if you played more skillful than someone else, or just had a very lucky game. This is why bad poker players never get better, because they think when they lose it's bad luck, and when they win it is their skill. Most likely, it is vice versa. A skill a mercenaries player NEEDS to learn how to develop is the ability to say when they could have done something better, or improve something they do in general (average number of head shots per game) and not blame bad luck as much. Sometimes the game does give you some shit luck, but it is your job as a player to determine bad luck compared to bad skill.

This isn't targeted at you Damaja or anyone specific, just mercenaries players in general.
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2015, 11:12:09 PM »

i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.
Yes but luck in games can also make a game more skillful. This doesn't make sense at first, but let me explain. Since luck plays a pretty big role in the outcome of a run/many runs, it's hard to determine whether a mistake was made on your behalf or if it was bad luck. At he same time, it's hard to say if you played more skillful than someone else, or just had a very lucky game. This is why bad poker players never get better, because they think when they lose it's bad luck, and when they win it is their skill. Most likely, it is vice versa. A skill a mercenaries player NEEDS to learn how to develop is the ability to say when they could have done something better, or improve something they do in general (average number of head shots per game) and not blame bad luck as much. Sometimes the game does give you some shit luck, but it is your job as a player to determine bad luck compared to bad skill.

This isn't targeted at you Damaja or anyone specific, just mercenaries players in general.

well, i think you've known and played with me long enough to realize my luck with this game. whatever the case may be, this games bullshit got the best of me. and i'm glad to be done with it.

mods, feel free to add me to the official retired list... lol
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2015, 12:58:41 AM »

syn knows what's up. a good player makes his own luck. lol.

damaja play?
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2015, 03:23:16 AM »

i don't play this crap anymore, but i really would have liked if there were less luck determining factors. bad spawns, no ammo drops, getting shafted on leg stuns/crits, unregistered shots in lag, etc. mercs is mostly a skill game, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of it all, those small things really get in the way of the outcome of a run. and to me, that's just stupid.

While we're on this subject, it's time I gave my thoughts on the luck aspect of this game. To put it simply, I agree with Damaja on the game mainly relying on luck and here's why.

In my opinion, Wesker STARS is the only character that potentially doesn't need any luck in the game and does take the most skill to use over the rest. This would explain why he has the highest scores than the rest on the leader boards. The simple reason why is because his dash bypasses everything, and he has an overall good weapon load out. It's not really the fact that he's OP (even if he may be) but he's simply a character that a player can just play most of the time while not relying on luck all of the time despite certain aspects.

Synester, I remember when you mentioned in a call that having luck in a game like this makes it hard to judge a bad run either because a player was actually "doing bad" as apposed to them just having bad luck. As an example you mentioned that someone could claim to get too many crits in a game (let's assume they're playing Wesker), and it ultimately has them loose too much time because of the bullet kills or getting Cephalos in the process. Realistically they could have been going for more leg shots prior to those head-shots, but due to the lack of stuns they receive from the luck aspect (they were probably forced to use extra health and dash enemies that were weakened because of no stuns) they decided to try and go for head shots more often because at least if the game doesn't give you a critical hit, it's a guaranteed stun. (On Experimental Facility, even head shot stuns are not guaranteed and based on luck, but an every other stage they are)
 
so someone who doesn't agree with me can say it was the player's fault for relying on head-shots and not shooting the leg more, but that's simply telling them to resort to a worse form of RNG with loosing extra health to dash from no stuns, and they could also be low on health already by doing that earlier and imply have no choice but to try for a more "RNG-Safe" option.

Here's a non Wesker example:
It's clear that any other character besides Wesker STARS 90% of the time will be going for leg stuns to build time. Leg stuns are NEVER guaranteed to happen.
The results you can get from shooting the leg are...
.the enemy grabs their leg for a short time --- stun
.the enemy falls on their knees for a short time  --- stun
.the enemy falls on their back --- a less reliable stun unless used correctly to set up multi-kills
.the enemy just flinches - not a stun

The characters are always going for the first two options, because if set up properly that will be a melee. Assume the above results are for REGULAR enemies. Here are your "skill" options if you get the 3rd result.
.you can wait for another enemy (if they are around) and go through the luck process again to try and set them up over the fallen enemy for a multi-kill
.you can wait for the fallen enemy to get up and lead them to another enemy to do the same as the above

If you get the 4th result after all shots are expired before the enemy dies here are your options.
.lead the enemy to another un-weakened enemy and go through the process with the un-weakened enemy to try and set up a multi-kill
.lead the weakened enemy to a timer (again IF you have one around at the time) and melee them with the timer
.use a flash grenade or a flash round to finish off the enemy (again, these are not always available)

And essentially all of these side options just waste extra time trying to save one melee for 5 seconds when you could have just gotten a viable stun result in the first place.

Now for non-wesker characters, let's say you run into a scripted Cephalo enemy. The basic way to stop this is to shoot them in the leg, and cancel it out right? Chris, Sheva, and Jill HAVE to do this if they want to still actively build time. You are still relying on the game's luck to give you that leg stun you will need to cancel that cephalo; because if you let the Cephalo spawn you will either have to improvise on meleeing it (which still wastes time regardless if it's done correctly or not, and that is also a 50% chance to do it correctly) or you will have to kill it. Wasting more time because of a lost melee.
For a scripted enemy that doesn't stun in the maximum amount of shots you can put into it, here are your melee options:

Chris STARS
. can use Nitrogen as a last resort (Nitrogen is not always available)
. after activating the cehpalo, can shoot it multiple times with a machine gun until it rolls on the ground, and with enough shots can stomp it resulting in a melee (Not guaranteed to work, the Cehpalo will usually die before it rolls)

Chris BSAA
.can shoot 5 handgun shots to the body of the Cephalo, then from a specific distance shoot it with a shotgun forcing it to the ground, then stomp. (Does not always work. It can be fairly consistent, but when you're in a group it's not worth it) 

Chris Safari
. certain handgun bullets plus shotgunning it t the ground will melee it (again not guaranteed)

Jill BSAA
. multiple shots with the machine gun will cause the cephalo to roll, and can result in a double knee drop melee if enough shots are connected (Cephalo is not guaranteed to roll)

Jill Battlesuit and Sheva BSAA
. both can either spam the cehalo wit hthe machine gun until it rolls for a successful melee, or mix up some sniper shots with it while rolling to Impale or Double Knee Drop (Not guaranteed, not to mention you are wasting a lot of time with this set up, it's better to kill the Ceph and move on)

Sheva Tribal
. Nitrogen on the weakened enemy before they take more damage (Nitrogen will not always be available)
. A lucky shot with one of the arrows will cause the Cehplo to roll on the ground, a second hit from an arrow will result in a melee with an Impale (Never guaranteed)
. Explosive rounds to force the ceph to the ground will result in a melee after significant damage has been done prior (Explosive rounds are never guaranteed, it also wastes and and is overall unsafe if other enemies are around)
 
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Most of you should already know this information on how to melee cephalos as other characters, but I am simply trying to point out that it's still all luck based. If you happened to get a stun, then you don't have to go through any of those above options. That's lucky. If you didn't and end up going through the above options, you've just entered the second stage of battle against the game's luck. Not only do you have to go through the same process with multiple enemies around you, but you also have to enter a THIRD stage of battle against the cephalo.

Now for those of you who still think it's less Luck based, and more skill, I will tell you what I think is the only proper "skill-based" choices you have when it comes to a scripted cephalo situation.
. choosing when to engage a scripted enemy (when to start shooting them)
. choosing which is the best method of dealing with a cephalo if forced to activate them (test your luck with a melee, or just kill it and move on)

Other luck based things I'd like to point out are:
.ammo drops
.herb drops
.grenade drops
.enemy spawns (on some maps)

All things that the player has no control over. Certain aspects will INFLUENCE these things, but it's still overall up to the game to decide whether or not you will get handgun ammo for Wesker STARS; if you will get a nitro drop for Sheva Tribal or Chris STARS; if you will get that scripted long pole enemy in Missile Area at the very start of the run, or near the end to screw you over on the combo only to start all over again; if you will get that one green herb drop so that you can stay alive as Wesker STARS.

Now I'm not saying the game is ALL luck based. There is definitely some skill to it, and things that can be the fault of the player and not blamed on luck itself. Here is a list of basic knowledge that is on the player's skill ability.

. knowing your character and all of their options
. knowing the enemy AI and how it works
. knowing where to be at certain times
. understanding all stages and their spawn points
. knowing when to go for timers
. knowing when to discard ammo and etc for your partner (another luck-based mechanic I don't feel like going over)
. perfecting your angel on enemies for multi-kills when you do get stuns
. not getting hit often (or at all in some cases)
. knowing how to handle crowds
. despite luck being a factor, finding the way to still consistently build time with little to no downtime between kills
. As mentioned by Synyster, knowing how to openly notice your own mistakes and learning from them instead of blaming luck 24/7 (Spawns, items drops for teammates, bullet kills, and responsibility for being somewhere at the right time are still factors you have some control over)


The main skill factor in this game is the mentality of the player as well. This game (and all other forms of Mercenaries that do exist out there) will take patience, and more often than not it will be a dice roll game that you will be playing 24/7. In this game you WILL need luck to get the best potential score, but you are still controlling the character behind the controller to test just how well you handle your own luck. With most of you here, the scores show that. They show how most of you handle your luck, or how you somehow turn bad luck in your favor. Wesker STARS scores simply show how hard you are willing to work for your achievement with little luck involved. Look at it however you want, luck is still there and it affects your gameplay one way or another.

I may have left out some parts in my argument because it's really late here, and I'm falling asleep :c I hope I at least showed my point well enough to you all. This is all just my opinion and all of you are free to disagree, but I would still like to know what you think in response.

P.S. Synyster I spell your name wrong a few times in this post I think. Sorry for that xD

Woof!

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Synyster
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2015, 11:07:19 AM »

Kotier, I think you do understand my point before about players trying to realize what is bad luck, or bad skill on their part BUT the headshot example that you gave was not good. Saying that the player had to resort to a worse form of RNG by leg stunning is not correct. From experience, I know I will get a leg stun a large majority of the time. If I do not, I dash, which is also fine because you are getting 5 seconds and NOT a crit. I also know that criticals occur often enough that if you regularly go for them on PA, your runs will be ruined quite often. It is safer to always go for leg shots because there is less of a chance of a run being ruined by a crit or ceph (one crit or ceph pretty much ruins your chance of WR on PA).

You as a player need to set yourself up in the best position to get a high score and that is the skill of the game. Saying that the whole game is a dice roll is semi correct but would you rather use a 5 sided dice (die) or an 8 sided dice?

Other characters are harder. They have only one option usually: leg shot. If no stun happens time and time again, that is bad luck and there is nothing you as a player can change to fix that, but after MANY leg shots, the chance of getting a stun is always the same. You can use this knowledge to your advantage.

I also think it is funny Damaja said "you realize my (bad) luck with this game". Damaja, YOU don't have any specific luck with the game. We are all playing with the same odds/chances and over a large number of games, your skill shows through compared to your luck. If we both have played 100000 games of PA and I end up with a score 20k higher, that is not because I had better luck or you had worse. Over that many games WE BOTH HAD THE SAME ODDS, SAME CHANCES, SAME PROBABILITY OF CERTAIN THINGS HAPPENING. When there is a chance of something happening (say 12% chance a critical will occur) there is a chance you will get something like 15 crits out of 100, a SMALL chance. This is bad luck, sure BUT when you do 100000 headshots, IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE YOU WILL GET 13000 crits (13%). It is virtually impossible you will even get 12500 crits.

Read the first 3 paragraphs from this: https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html
ESPECIALLY the 3rd paragraph, it gives a beautiful example of what I'm trying to say with coin flips.

Damaja, I'm not trying to rip you, but when you read my first post and then say how bad "YOUR" luck is, you clearly didn't take the time to understand what I was saying at first.

We are all playing the same exact game with the same odds built in. Sure, if we all played 3 games EVER, and then set the game down, the scores would most likely be determined by luck. But, since we have all played thousands upon thousands of games, the chances will always even out (example: EVERY players crit rate will always be 12%). In other words, we are all given the same opportunity.

It's funny because when I had to take statistics in school and we looked at the topic of "luck" I used to try and apply it to mercenaries lol!!! I'm a loser. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put people down on their views, just trying to let people see another view of the luck side of the game.

I want people to really read this and try to understand what I'm saying (it's hard to convey my ideas in the best possible way). Do not just comment something like "I've played this game enough to know I have shit luck" because I would have written all of this for nothing.

Read the first 3 paragraphs of the link above FULLY, and then reply to my comment on your views. This discussion is actually pretty good, and no fighting a be-littling.

EDIT: Read the 4th paragraph as well!! It tells you the odds of simply getting 1200 out of 2000 guesses correct of heads or tails. (Having 60% success compared to 50%). Compare this to something like headshots or ANY other probability in the game.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 01:34:56 PM by Synyster » Logged

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